ED today but but NT cost me dearly

ihatedeskjets

Hi all, thanks for the good advice and kind words,

JMV a few facts from my actual contract to consider. Your advice would be appreciated.

Further to the private mileage issue I know that in my contract it states "Employees will either pay for fuel themselves and claim it back at the end of each month, or take the company fuel card and pay a contribution each month toward private mileage" it then goes on "If a company fuel card is taken then the monthly contributions will be deducted from the actual cost at the end of the year and the employee will pay any shortfall or the company will refund any overpayments"

This did not happen year end 2008 at all. Year end 2009 there was a big panic to have mileage records up to date as the MD was being hassled by the tax man but again no-one I know in the company paid or was asked to pay for fuel, neither did anyone I know get a refund. I paid £20 per month for my fuel but did around 800 miles for private use, do the maths I was using a lot more but never paid more, even though I actually offered to double my contribution because I felt guilty about it. Having a 'go anywhere for free' fuel card was just considered the norm and a perk of the job for field staff, so how can they discipline me for using it too much ?

As for the company phone, the terms are 'the company phone is for business use only, whilst we do not object to employees making calls to home or family when away any employee deemed to be taking advantage will be given the itemised bill in writing along with a letter asking for them to pay for the calls'. Between my start date of June 2008 and dismissal in Sept 2010 I was never asked to pay a penny and again I know of no-one who ever has.

My mistake of not contacting the office enough to check on service calls for a week is a minor offence because if there had been an urgent call to attend to they certainly would of rang me, we were instructed to check our field equipment, read service manuals, repair faulty equipment at home when we had no calls to do but they 'lumped' the mileage and phone calls together with not phoning the office and came up with 'gross misconduct'.

Well the more I discuss it the more I feel I have definately been treated unfairly.

There won't be any developments now until after xmas I guess so have a good holiday all, and if xmas isn't your thing then I hope you have a good 'whatever you celebrate'.

Ken.

JMV

ihatedeskjets wrote: »

Further to the private mileage issue I know that in my contract it states "Employees will either pay for fuel themselves and claim it back at the end of each month, or take the company fuel card and pay a contribution each month toward private mileage" it then goes on "If a company fuel card is taken then the monthly contributions will be deducted from the actual cost at the end of the year and the employee will pay any shortfall or the company will refund any overpayments"

Who would organise this, in terms of deciding how much the employee should pay at the end of the year?

ihatedeskjets wrote: »

This did not happen year end 2008 at all. Year end 2009 there was a big panic to have mileage records up to date as the MD was being hassled by the tax man but again no-one I know in the company paid or was asked to pay for fuel, neither did anyone I know get a refund. I paid £20 per month for my fuel but did around 800 miles for private use, do the maths I was using a lot more but never paid more, even though I actually offered to double my contribution because I felt guilty about it. Having a 'go anywhere for free' fuel card was just considered the norm and a perk of the job for field staff, so how can they discipline me for using it too much ?

Do you have proof that you offered more? (an email perhaps)...

Did anyone mention at any point that your 'private use was becoming noticeably excessive?

If you have any emails or anything from colleagues where the issue is mentioned that would be good.

ihatedeskjets wrote: »

As for the company phone, the terms are 'the company phone is for business use only, whilst we do not object to employees making calls to home or family when away any employee deemed to be taking advantage will be given the itemised bill in writing along with a letter asking for them to pay for the calls'. Between my start date of June 2008 and dismissal in Sept 2010 I was never asked to pay a penny and again I know of no-one who ever has.

The important thing here is that it states that if you are deemed to be taking advantage you will be given an itemised bill, in writing -were you ever given such a letter or bill?

ihatedeskjets wrote: »

My mistake of not contacting the office enough to check on service calls for a week is a minor offence because if there had been an urgent call to attend to they certainly would of rang me, we were instructed to check our field equipment, read service manuals, repair faulty equipment at home when we had no calls to do but they 'lumped' the mileage and phone calls together with not phoning the office and came up with 'gross misconduct'.

You said earlier that you operations manager was on Holiday at the time? What were the arrangements in place for when the person you report to was on holiday?

ihatedeskjets wrote: »

Well the more I discuss it the more I feel I have definately been treated unfairly.

I agree....so here are some suggestions - to go along with your unfair dissmissal claim with ACAS...

* Do you have a copy of the companies disciplinary policy? - important things to check are the wording for any kind of disciplinary action. Infringements such as your not phoning in or over using the phone or fuel card would normally be the subject of some kind of warning - sort of a slap wrist and told to buck your ideas up - at the very least a good employer would give the employee the opportunity to amend/rectify the behaviour...

* Do they have any appeals policy in their Disciplinary policy? Follow it if they do - whether you feel like it or not, I would suggest writing a letter to tell them that you consider they have constructively dismissed you and you are seeking legal advice - perhaps ask them for copies of your personell records...

Hopefully this gives you a starting point and some things to discuss with ACAS - From a Union perspective this would be a case worth fighting...but I'm assuming you aren't in a Union or trade association of any kind?

Good Luck

EDITED (to include)

Since October 2004, all employers are required to set out their dismissal and disciplinary rules and the new minimum statutory procedures in writing. There are potential penalties for failing to issue these to employees, but more importantly, if you are contemplating dismissing an employee you must follow these procedures, otherwise you will automatically be found to have unfairly dismissed the employee.


This page on this website makes for interesting reading: http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/business_advice/employing_people/problems_incidents/dismissal.php

ihatedeskjets

As it is only a small company the MD or his wife the office manager would decide how much was paid for fuel by any employee, but as I understood my t&c's ANY shortfall at the end of the year would have to be paid by the employee.

No-one ever mentioned my private use was becoming excessive, hence my offer to pay more each month as I was feeling guilty. This offer was only verbal i'm afarid.
I was never given any phone bills or told I was using the company phone too much.
The only appeals procedure is to appeal to the MD, the person who dismissed me.
There was no official procedure in force for when our call allocator was away, anyone from the office could call me to give me a service call, ( small office with 15 people in the same room) only around 40 employees in total for this outfit.

I've just had a conversation with another engineer who tells me that since I was dismissed the company has:
Removed all fuel cards, engineers have to claim fuel back now
Everyone has to supply timesheets detailing daily activities and mileage.
It sounds to me like they have realised there were short comings in their procedures and they have changed everything to cover themselves in the future.

He has confirmed that he has never known any employee to receive a bill for phone use or private mileage in the last 4 years he has worked there.

Unfortunately all e-mails were on my company laptop which I did not have time to backup, nor would I as that is company property. But they have to provide me with a copy of the company handbook which was in force at the time I hope.

And no I'm not in a union of any kind unfortunately.

Since October 2004, all employers are required to set out their dismissal and disciplinary rules and the new minimum statutory procedures in writing.

These procedures are in the company handbook and were followed, BUT the 'impartial chairperson' is always the Office manager who just happens to be the MD's wife. And although my Line manager was conducting the disciplinary hearing he was quickly demoted whilst the 'chair person' took over the prosecution. I have the notes from the meeting to prove this, so I could argue that the correct procedure was not followed ?


Thanks again,
Ken

fiveyearplan

There are a number of reasons a person might be given a nil tax code - did you actually tell your employer you were bankrupt?

ihatedeskjets

I asked the jobcentre to look at the sanction again and was turned down, so now i've appealed and wrote a statement at the jobcentre when I handed in the appeal to the effect I was persuing a claim for unfair dismissal. I duly received all the paperwork from the jobcentre and guess what ? my extra statement is missing.

I've had no money for 7 weeks and i've just read that I should have claimed jsa hardship payments and been entitled after 2 weeks ? will have to apply on Monday and see if they will back date them if I qualify.

My claim is in to the employment tribunal and ACAS have been in touch, they wait now for my ex employer to respond, The chap from ACAS asked if I would consider a compromise of some sort and I told him all I wanted was a reference and gross misconduct removing from my record, 1 months notice pay and loss of benefit, a mere £2774 in total. Waiting now, in the cold, relying on handouts from family. Christmas was cancelled this year.

rach_01

Check that the company followed disciplinary procedures correctly. They often fall down on little things like not stating you can be accompanied at the disciplinary hearing by a fellow employee/trade union rep. Or even failing to give you the right to appeal. As you were employed by a small company it's worth checking this out. If they've done either of the above it's an automatic unfair dismissal.

I presume they went for termination of employment for Gross Misconduct as they think you've been dishonest regarding submitting mileage forms/fuel receipts. If this gets to an employment tribunal they're going to have to prove it. Seeing as no-one else appears to have been treated in the same manner as you it's going to be difficult to prove! The fact that the company seems to have drastically altered its procedures suggests that they know they've cocked up.

Get as much evidence as you can, difficult as you've returned your company laptop, it would help if you have witnesses who could speak on your behalf at an employment tribunal.

I don't think it will get this far. The company won't want a tribunal and they will most likely settle. Free legal advice from an employment solicitor may be useful to see how much you can reasonably request for an out of court settlement.

If you've been treated unfairly by your ex-employer don't let them get away with it.

Good luck and I do hope your circumstances improve.

alastairq

yes, good luck....

Maybe your ex-employer will end up in the same boat as you.....sooner rather than later?

Or am I being mean?

ihatedeskjets

A final update on this folks.
The tribunal service ordered a pre hearing review for the middle of May and today I have had an offer through ACAS of a small amount of money and more importantly a reference. I have accepted of course as this was never about money and all I wanted was some kind of reference.

So in taking action I have managed to alter the "Gross Misconduct" sacking to a general reference that does not state a reason for my leaving the company. Well worth the effort.

Thanks to all for your advice and support and good luck.

Ken

tigerfeet2006

:T:T:T

All the best for the future and well done on not giving in to them.

NewStart09

Hey cover yourself and request a copy of your personnel file, you are allowed one copy of this per year if you request it in writing.

That way you will know exactly what paper trail they have, the offer could imply that your case was stronger against them than you thought.

Also ask for a copy of the 'future' reference to be given to your next employer, that way you will know in advance what will be said about you. They could stick to the basic format and simply send a bare basic reference, that only confirms your dates of employment.

Good Luck in the future,

NewStart09