Sa 108

StevieJ

Is it true that you have to declare a gain over the annual allowance even though you have losses in the same year to bring the net position below the annual allowance? even if you don't normally complete a self assessment form.

Mikeyorks

I normally stay away from CGT .... but as everyone else is ..... an unvarnished HMRC quote (my bold bits) :-

You also don't need to report your gains if all of the following conditions are met:

• you have no Capital Gains Tax to pay
• your total gains (before you deduct any losses) are equal to or lower than the annual tax-free allowance (£10,100 for 2009-10 for individuals)
• your total ‘disposal proceeds’ - usually the amount you receive when you sell or dispose of an asset - are no more than four times the tax-free allowance (ie no more than £40,400 for individuals in 2009-10)
• you're resident and domiciled in the UK (usually this means that you live here and your permanent home is here, but see the link below for more on 'residency', 'domicile' and taxes)

Unfortunately at least bullet 2 gets you?


PS Might as well add the full link :-

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cgt/intro/report-gain.htm#2

StevieJ

Yes they are chargeable gains/losses, the reporting element just seems a bit pointless when I am not submitting any other returns.

StevieJ

Argentum_Tax wrote: »

Are you saying you have nil taxable income?

Once you are within the self assessment system, you need to complete all relevant pages of the Tax return, including employment, savings income etc, otherwise it is an incomplete self assessment, even if there's no tax to pay on your gains or income.

I am on PAYE, with all savings in either ISA or NS&I tax free index linked or stock market (with net gains/losses below allowance). Like I say what a waste of time it would be completing a self assessment, I thought the govt were trying to cut down on this kind of thing. Thanks anyway.

jimmo

StevieJ wrote: »

Is it true that you have to declare a gain over the annual allowance even though you have losses in the same year to bring the net position below the annual allowance? even if you don't normally complete a self assessment form.

Absolutely not true.
The advice you have received all seems to be based on what you have to do when completing A Self Assessment Return, but you do not have to.
The following link tells you what you have to do if you have Capital Gains Tax to pay.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cgt/intro/report-gain.htm
Nothing actually deals with your particular situation where you do not, normally, complete S A returns and actually have no liability to Capital gains Tax.
Maybe HMRC are not very good at telling what you don't have to do in any situation but, as someone who is not required to make a Return your only responsibilty is to Notify HMRC if you become liable to Tax.
With the exception of those who are in business (self-employed or in partnership) the same applies e.g. lettings profits.
The following link is directly related to penalties chargeable in cases of Failure to Notify (liability) but at least it does say that if you are not liable to tax you don't have to bother HMRC.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/emmanual/EM4551.htm

StevieJ

But as Mikeyorks points out which implies I have to do something, in addition I need to register some losses for 2008/9, I think you only have 4 years to register or lose them. Also Argentum seems to be a bit of an expert.

You also don't need to report your gains if all of the following conditions are met:

• you have no Capital Gains Tax to pay
• your total gains (before you deduct any losses) are equal to or lower than the annual tax-free allowance (£10,100 for 2009-10 for individuals)
• your total ‘disposal proceeds’ - usually the amount you receive when you sell or dispose of an asset - are no more than four times the tax-free allowance (ie no more than £40,400 for individuals in 2009-10)
• you're resident and domiciled in the UK (usually this means that you live here and your permanent home is here, but see the link below for more on 'residency', 'domicile' and taxes)

Mikeyorks

StevieJ wrote: »

But as Mikeyorks points out which implies I have to do something,

I did say I normally stay away from CGT !:)

On reflection I think jimmo is 100% right. At the head of that link I posted I think I would have been wise to dwell a little more on this :-

When you're filling in your Self Assessment tax return, you won't always have to complete the Capital Gains Tax pages.

...... as it's now clear the headings / sub headings on that whole page don't make it very clear where the major paras start and stop.

It's not as though I haven't been there before! In using my wife's CGT allowance to April 2010 I'd sold some £50k of funds. Which is of course more than 4 x the £10100 allowance. Superficially it looks as though that has to be reported .... even though the gain was carefully under the £10100 allowance. But I'd convinced myself that the system was truly silly .... and it had to be reported if she did an SA Return normally ....... but not otherwise. And I apologise for forgetting that until jimmo prompted it. Sorry.

On the losses ..... you just write to your HMRC office to record them. The timeframe is :-

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cgt/intro/losses.htm#3

jimmo

First of all, apologies for not spotting that mikeyorks had already posted the link that I used. To be honest, I didn't look at his link but concentrated on the quotation he printed which definitely applies to people who complete S A returns.
If you read through the link you will see that.
If you have losses for 2008/09 to register then, to me, that is new information, not included in your original question.
Yes, you have a 4 year time limit to register those losses but that does not necessarily mean you have to complete annual Returns.
You may think Argentum seems to be a bit of an expert. I prefer to reserve judgement at this time.

StevieJ

jimmo wrote: »

First of all, apologies for not spotting that mikeyorks had already posted the link that I used. To be honest, I didn't look at his link but concentrated on the quotation he printed which definitely applies to people who complete S A returns.
If you read through the link you will see that.
If you have losses for 2008/09 to register then, to me, that is new information, not included in your original question.
Yes, you have a 4 year time limit to register those losses but that does not necessarily mean you have to complete annual Returns.
You may think Argentum seems to be a bit of an expert. I prefer to reserve judgement at this time.

My original intention was to complete SA 108 for both of those years with backup and leave it at that, is there any time limit on reportable data as opposed to taxable. Thanks for all your contribution.

Mikeyorks

StevieJ wrote: »

, is there any time limit on reportable data as opposed to taxable.

Link at the bottom of post #9.

But be cautious ..... different time limits (at the moment but converging) depending on whether you file(d) an SA Return or not!

Mikeyorks

Question, please? (jimmo?) Whilst we're on this.

Having identified (?) that you don't need to file a return if gains exceed £10,100, but same year losses net down below that figure.

If, as StevieJ is doing you have 'banked' earlier year losses - can you only utilise those via a Return? Even if the same position applies - ie gain exceeding the annual allowance but netted below by using part of a 'banked' loss?

Or can you also do this informally? Which would seem a bit odd and where a Return would be appropriate ... even though no liability ultimately due.