RPI to CPI Early Day Motion 1032

ordinaryman

Greetings to you all. I rather suspect I am a confirmed ally of Rippoff and others of you on the site regarding the RPI to CPI Pensions proposals. Briefly I have been doing everything you have been doing to draw the attention of Public Sector Pensioners to our situation since last August. I have written to MPs and Ministers, I have addressed groups, written to newspapers, sent emails etc. I notice that on Thursday we were all involved in trying to pin down Steve Webb, the Pensions Minister on the Guardian Money Blog on this issue - to no avail
With all due respect to the efforts you are making , what really concerns me is that at least one and hopefully very many serious legal challenges are made to the Government over this issue. I really believe that their actions are bordering on the illegal having read the original Pensions Act and they need to be seriously challenged on this. But who is doing it? Protests may be ok but they will be largely ignored. A strong legal team backed by the Pensioners Unions or by the Professional Associations ( in my case Teachers) needs to be commissioned to challenge the Government on our behalf. Perhaps this is already happening, but, until we can formulate a united strategy, we are all lone voices.
What do you all think?

swiliaWaF

that was a fun read

Prof_as_was

About my post 318, and CDV’s comment on it Post 325. My “surely leftish” was just meant to be a little joke that was certainly not aimed at the excellent CDV, or anyone personally, though maybe at an argument against public sector Ocupational Pensions that has appeared here from time to time. Sorry it was badly expressed.



About ordinaryman's 325, wish I'd written that instead, because it says very well what I really was trying to get to. Let’s talk about that.

Prof_as_was

JohnB47 wrote: »

Regarding the following portion of Steve Webbs statement, I found the supporting 'praise' from the Institute of Fiscal Studies website.
..............

"...CPI is a better measure of inflation than the indices to which benefits are currently linked because the way it is calculated allows for the fact consumers are able to protect themselves from price changes by substituting towards relatively cheaper goods, and because the goods and services it covers better reflect the "inflation experience" of households receiving benefits. We find the first of these arguments to be sound....

Thanks JohnB47 for finding and showing up Webb's inappropraite use (misuse?) of the IFS document. I just further pick out the fact that the IFS opinion is about the effect on "benefits" (ie the recipients of benefits), not Occupational Pensioners. Altogether a different thing (however much people of ill-will like to spin a fiction that OPs are benefits).

Prof_as_was

3 points/queries about Webb's rationale for CPI, as summarised and posted by Ripoff, (thanks as ever, Ripoff)

Quote: "It is important to add that with regard to company pensions, we propose *not* to over-ride scheme rules, and so where company pension schemes have specifically promised to pay RPI indexation, we will not be intervening to change this."

Question arises: And where public sector OPs are based on 'specific promises'?

Quote: "We acknowledge that the CPI is on average lower than the RPI. However, it is not the Government's role to choose the highest inflation measure available, but rather to choose the most appropriate measure. For the reasons given above, we believe that the CPI is the right measure to use."

Question: Since when is it the Government's role to 'choose an inflation measure'? If existing contracts or agreements (including implicit by established practice) are to be discussed by Government, it is (and has been) usual practice to consult with the parties, and if necessary negotiate with their representive bodies.

Last, a question to friends on the site who watched the Guardian on-line Q&A - does anybody understand Webb's statement there that he's not responsible for public sector Occupational Pensions? Or did I make that up in the all the excitement?

Haybob

ordinaryman wrote: »

Greetings to you all. I rather suspect I am a confirmed ally of Rippoff and others of you on the site regarding the RPI to CPI Pensions proposals. Briefly I have been doing everything you have been doing to draw the attention of Public Sector Pensioners to our situation since last August. I have written to MPs and Ministers, I have addressed groups, written to newspapers, sent emails etc. I notice that on Thursday we were all involved in trying to pin down Steve Webb, the Pensions Minister on the Guardian Money Blog on this issue - to no avail
With all due respect to the efforts you are making , what really concerns me is that at least one and hopefully very many serious legal challenges are made to the Government over this issue. I really believe that their actions are bordering on the illegal having read the original Pensions Act and they need to be seriously challenged on this. But who is doing it? Protests may be ok but they will be largely ignored. A strong legal team backed by the Pensioners Unions or by the Professional Associations ( in my case Teachers) needs to be commissioned to challenge the Government on our behalf. Perhaps this is already happening, but, until we can formulate a united strategy, we are all lone voices.
What do you all think?

I concur with your sentiments, it is surprising just how many thousands will be affected by this break of contract and it appears to be opposed by each trade union or representative group in isolation. Someone needs to unite all the thousands and start serious pressure together with legal challenges to thwart this wrong.

BoxerfanUK

ordinaryman wrote: »

Greetings to you all. I rather suspect I am a confirmed ally of Rippoff and others of you on the site regarding the RPI to CPI Pensions proposals. Briefly I have been doing everything you have been doing to draw the attention of Public Sector Pensioners to our situation since last August. I have written to MPs and Ministers, I have addressed groups, written to newspapers, sent emails etc. I notice that on Thursday we were all involved in trying to pin down Steve Webb, the Pensions Minister on the Guardian Money Blog on this issue - to no avail
With all due respect to the efforts you are making , what really concerns me is that at least one and hopefully very many serious legal challenges are made to the Government over this issue. I really believe that their actions are bordering on the illegal having read the original Pensions Act and they need to be seriously challenged on this. But who is doing it? Protests may be ok but they will be largely ignored. A strong legal team backed by the Pensioners Unions or by the Professional Associations ( in my case Teachers) needs to be commissioned to challenge the Government on our behalf. Perhaps this is already happening, but, until we can formulate a united strategy, we are all lone voices.
What do you all think?

Absolutely correct and to be honest we can all go around in circles on forums such as this and Steve Webb and co' can carry on and ignore us all. As you say, it needs co-ordinated action..... BUT WHO will lead it??

On the one hand there are groups representing retired pensioners, and I feel maybe Steve Webb and co think they can get away with it as presumably there are not many retired pensioners groups with the financial clout (unless i'm mistaken) to pursue a legal challenge, But what Steve Webb possibly forgets is.........

.............this is not just about pensioners NOW, but FUTURE pensioners TOO, such as myself. I wonder therefore if the Civil Service unions ought to be pursuing this, in a simliar way to the PCS & POA who are considering a joint legal challenge to this governments imposition without agreement to the changes they've made to the Civil Service Compensation Scheme.

As a Civil Servant, employee, union member, future pensioner, just like the changes they've made to the CSCS, I feel this Government are interfering with my 'accrued rights' YET AGAIN, in my humble opinion.

ordinaryman

Thank you BoxerfanUK.
I agree, the only organisations with the financial 'clout' to mount a legal challenge are the Unions. Question is will they be prepared to argue the case for pensioners since, presumably their main concerns will be for their members. What we could do with is a line in to the National Pensioners Groups and find out what actions they are planning and whether these include a legal challenge to the Government's proposals. Does anyone know of contact addresses or phone numbers/email addresses which we can follow up?

StevieJ

shaunrc wrote: »

Hi
I am an economist who also has all the CII pension qualifications and so I have followed this issue closely since it was first announced. I offer help and assistance on here from time to time. I wrote an article on the problems of the switch when the move from indexing by RPI to CPI for pensions was announced. Here is a link to it.

http://t.co/Kw1rZbU

For those who follow the situation in depth I have a category in my blog on UK inflation and the issues surrounding it. You will see that there are dangers building which makes the proposed move potentially more expensive for future pensioners...

What is particularly sneaky is the way that they have sucked all the negative out of RPI i.e. the fall in interest rates from 5.75% to 0.5% and now imposing CPI at the very bottom of the IR curve.

BoxerfanUK

ordinaryman wrote: »

Question is will they be prepared to argue the case for pensioners since, presumably their main concerns will be for their members.

But the CS unions would be arguing the case for their members, who ultimately will be pensioners one day. A case fought for their members would also benefit existing pensioners.

The Civil service pensioners alliance (CSPA) would have nothing to lose by at least 'approaching' all Civil Service unions, as presumably most members of the CSPA are also former civil service union members, in fact some may still subscribe as retired members. I know that my union (POA) has a retired members subscription