Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

StevieJ

funguy wrote: »

Theres extremes in all countries for videos like this...im sure we could film worse in this country!

The lady in that film actually works and receives less than £2.50 per hour in a fairly expensive place, how can that be better than the UK minimum wage (even after tax)?

They pay absolutely NO TAX on any earnings so are actually better off than the lowest earning UK residents!

lostinrates

Hank_Rearden wrote: »

To be fair, a lot of Tory voters used to be socialists in their youth. The switch from left to right over time is well documented; whether it is because of wisdom, vested interest or some other reason is less clear.



That's up there with "fascism and communism are the same thing" as impressive sounding sophistry that doesn't really mean anything.

I get what Sir H is saying, a lot of extreme right views and left views are akin on a ''politcial circle'' just as love and hate are on an emotional one. I find my moderate self often torn between my extreme left and right views....and I also buy that both are part of an idealised, or rather perhaps simplified interpretation of humanity at times.

Sir_Humphrey

Hank_Rearden wrote: »

That's up there with "fascism and communism are the same thing" as impressive sounding sophistry that doesn't really mean anything.

Not really.

There are two views of human nature; one that humans are perfect but are corrupted by the society they live in. The idea then is change the system = people behave much better.

The other is that humans are inherently flawed. It is in fact the flawed view that was traditionally held by conservatives (small c) which is why they tend not to see the point of change (because people do not change).

The idea of human perfectibility is an idea underpinning many ideologies.

Actually many communists actually consider themselves libertarian (mainly the anti-Stalinist Trot types).

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Amused about the poster admiring communist Hong Kong. Perhaps in the 1930s they would have praised the various authoritarian "utopias". At least people in the 1930s had an excuse for being duped by that sort of propaganda (i.e. no benefit of hindsight).

smartn

StevieJ wrote: »

Take a look at this :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU4jjdRzy3w

That is truly shocking. I do think the 'Trillion Pound Horror Story' was quite poor journalism but to me the sentiment was correct. We can't go on borrowing money from our kids to pay a grossly inflated public sector.

Does anyone know of the accuracy if the figures used in the trillion pound horror story, I find it very hard to believe that as a family of four we owe (if I remember correctly the quoted figure of £77000 for every man, women and child!) 288 thousand pounds.

Hank_Rearden

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

Not really.

There are two views of human nature; one that humans are perfect but are corrupted by the society they live in. The idea then is change the system = people behave much better.

The other is that humans are inherently flawed. It is in fact the flawed view that was traditionally held by conservatives (small c) which is why they tend not to see the point of change (because people do not change).

The idea of human perfectibility is an idea underpinning many ideologies.

Actually many communists actually consider themselves libertarian (mainly the anti-Stalinist Trot types).

Thanks - I think I understand the argument (now). I'm just not sure how relevant it is - even if we accept your premise that both libertarians and communists are perfectibilists [sic], what does that mean outside of philosophical theory? Maybe I misunderstood, but you seemed to be suggesting that they were intimately related, by simply noting that they shared this one viewpoint. To state the obvious, from a different viewpoint, they are antithetical...

treliac

Hank_Rearden wrote: »

To be fair, a lot of Tory voters used to be socialists in their youth. The switch from left to right over time is well documented; whether it is because of wisdom, vested interest or some other reason is less clear.

Idealism turns into realism with age and experience.

StevieJ

treliac wrote: »

Idealism turns into realism with age and experience.

Or maybe it turns into greed.

Sir_Humphrey

Hank_Rearden wrote: »

Thanks - I think I understand the argument (now). I'm just not sure how relevant it is - even if we accept your premise that both libertarians and communists are perfectibilists [sic], what does that mean outside of philosophical theory? Maybe I misunderstood, but you seemed to be suggesting that they were intimately related, by simply noting that they shared this one viewpoint. To state the obvious, from a different viewpoint, they are antithetical...

The common belief is that human perfection comes through a particular economic set-up, but that the systems they think would bring this about are opposite to each other. Communists think that humans would be perfect under communism (of a nature that has never actually been achieved) and right-wing Libertarians under a system of capitalism (of a pure form that has never actually been achieved). That is all I mean by different sides of the same coin.

Hank_Rearden

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

The common belief is that human perfection comes through a particular economic set-up, but that the systems they think would bring this about are opposite to each other. Communists think that humans would be perfect under communism (of a nature that has never actually been achieved) and right-wing Libertarians under a system of capitalism (of a pure form that has never actually been achieved). That is all I mean by different sides of the same coin.

I'm still confused by the concept of human perfection. Is that some utopia, distinct from simply the best possible arrangement? Or do we mean that humans are perfectly realised? I'm not sure I've ever encountered someone that has the "common belief" of perfectibility on this mortal coil....

Loughton_Monkey

StevieJ wrote: »

Take a look at this :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU4jjdRzy3w

At last, a solution to our own Housing Benefit problem!