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Generali

PasturesNew wrote: »

Ah, so it assumes people receive/pay for everything equally.

So there's no way to find out how much one contributes individually...

No because to do that you'd have to have 25,000,000 line items and Excel can't handle that.

PasturesNew wrote: »

So, looking at original income it assumes people have a wage, benefits in kind (no idea what that is), are self-employed, get a pension, have investments and other income.

Benefits in kind are things like education, healthcare, vouchers for free milk for poorer families and so on. Things that the Government pays out taxpayers' money for rather than actually giving the recipient the cash.

To be honest - it's all confusing, can't actually work out what means what on that list.

PasturesNew wrote: »

It'd help if the formulae were in there... or some instructions.

e.g rows 22-28, it seems to imply I'd receive those, but I don't. So then it raises the salary to a lot more, which isn't true/right.

I'm happy to answer any questions as best I can. The NSO will also be happy to do the same IME.

PasturesNew wrote: »

Are they saying that the average person earning what I do actually gets £6k more than me?
No wonder I'm poor.

I keep thinking about you during these times of benefits being cut and thinking back to the days when I was very poor as a single 21y/o working as a barman and living in a rotting, mouldy flat in South London. Frankly it makes me very angry that people in the top 15% of earners (by definition anyone who pays 40% tax) think that you should subsidise their lifestyles. I remember how I struggled and let's face it you can take a lot more as a 21y/o than as a proper adult.

In the UK, taxes are paid by the rich and by the childless and it's not right. If there is a society then everyone should chip in if they can.

JonnyBravo

PasturesNew wrote: »

e.g rows 22-28, it seems to imply I'd receive those, but I don't. So then it raises the salary to a lot more, which isn't true/right.

Are they saying that the average person earning what I do actually gets £6k more than me?
No wonder I'm poor.

They are averages. In those rows for example is "old age pension" well clearly you arent going to be getting that yet. But other households in your decile are. It is averaged out.

Generali

michaels wrote: »

Comparing rows 20 and 99 reveals the usual shocking marginal effective tax rates.

I note it includes imputed pension contributions but no doubt the figures also include pensioner households so I am not sure if that implies some sort of double counting?

You wouldn't seek to set up an economy from scratch that ended up with numbers like this. How to do it better has never been resolved IMO.

I think the imputed income line item is generally small enough that even if it is counted twice it will be dwarfed by benefit fraud and the black economy.

PasturesNew

Generali wrote: »

I keep thinking about you during these times of benefits being cut ...
In the UK, taxes are paid by the rich and by the childless and it's not right. If there is a society then everyone should chip in if they can.

I am not getting any benefits at all, never have.

It's just take, take, take ..... and all around me I see people with "stuff" and lifestyles that are out of reach for me.

My mate (2 kids, on the dole), for example: been away 2x in the past month, clubbing and buying weed, with his mates... then he's back home and chatting online on his posh phone, from inside a pub where he's having beers/burger.

I don't get to go away, or go for pub meals.

He's raking it in. 2 of them, 2 posh phones - £80/month!!! That's almost a whole month's "disposable income" for me after basic rent/bills are paid. Yet to him it's just another thing, on top of all the other things he enjoys.

Edit: Oh - and he was in the pub "killng time" as he'd dropped one of his kids off at the nursery, so was in there having a pint/burger until it was time to pick that kid up again. It literally went: Left the house, drop off at nursery, in the pub, pickup at nursery, home.

lemonjelly

Generali wrote: »

BTW I find it amazing that on average, half the households in the UK are net recipients of welfare.

I don't,

with child benefit, and specifically tax credits, and even further housing benefit/council tax benefit, it highlights in a way that employers aren't paying a living wage, & that the state is effectively subsidising employment.

JonnyBravo

Generali wrote: »

BTW I find it amazing that on average, half the households in the UK are net recipients of welfare.

Granted its bound to be a high number but you cant deduce that from this table. You get no information about the spread within each decile. The average miight be skewed by large recipients of welfare and relatively low contributions from many.
I think.

lemonjelly

JonnyBravo wrote: »

Granted its bound to be a high number but you cant deduce that from this table. You get no information about the spread within each decile. The average miight be skewed by large recipients of welfare and relatively low contributions from many.
I think.

I'd disagree Johhny,

take all those claiming State pension - they're welfare recipients. (30% ish of population?)
Recent government reports state 2.4 million are on Incapacity benefit alone.
2.45 million unemployed.
Approx 10-11 million tax credits claimants?
Then you've still got to add in people getting Disability Living Allowance. People who care for them getting Carers Allowance.

And welfare actually includes maternity/paternity/adoption pay.

And we haven't even started to consider lone parents, others claiming income support, or even the low paid who get housing benefit/council tax benefit yet!

Generali

PasturesNew wrote: »

I am not getting any benefits at all, never have.

It's just take, take, take ..... and all around me I see people with "stuff" and lifestyles that are out of reach for me.

My mate (2 kids, on the dole), for example: been away 2x in the past month, clubbing and buying weed, with his mates... then he's back home and chatting online on his posh phone, from inside a pub where he's having beers/burger.

I don't get to go away, or go for pub meals.

He's raking it in. 2 of them, 2 posh phones - £80/month!!! That's almost a whole month's "disposable income" for me after basic rent/bills are paid. Yet to him it's just another thing, on top of all the other things he enjoys.

Edit: Oh - and he was in the pub "killng time" as he'd dropped one of his kids off at the nursery, so was in there having a pint/burger until it was time to pick that kid up again. It literally went: Left the house, drop off at nursery, in the pub, pickup at nursery, home.

The way that 'relative poverty' calculations work is that if you don't have what people that earn a living have then you are 'relatively poor'. Thus if you can get yourself into the right place you get to make a decent living by doing beggur all. However if you don't tick the boxes, as I didn't and you don't, then you're expected to pay for it all.

JonnyBravo

lemonjelly wrote: »

I'd disagree Johhny,

take all those claiming State pension - they're welfare recipients. (30% ish of population?)
Recent government reports state 2.4 million are on Incapacity benefit alone.
2.45 million unemployed.
Approx 10-11 million tax credits claimants?
Then you've still got to add in people getting Disability Living Allowance. People who care for them getting Carers Allowance.

And welfare actually includes maternity/paternity/adoption pay.

And we haven't even started to consider lone parents, others claiming income support, or even the low paid who get housing benefit/council tax benefit yet!

Like I said. Its bound to be a high number but you can't deduce it from the table.

(I agree with most of your numbers but a tax credit claimant is far from certain to be a net beneficiary)

Blacklight

The tenth man should have just brought his child. They could have sat in the beer garden and drank for free on the £81.20 child benefit.