'Unlimited tuition fees – does that mean unlimited student loans?' blog discussion

Ninetails

Thank you gmang - not only reeling in parents, but grandparents too.

As with everything, the baby boomers really are pulling up the ladder after them.

WelshGandalf

I started uni around 10 years ago ago, was on a system very similar to the current one. I'm currently paying back at 9% of what I earn above £15,000. I think I will be able to pay it all back within the next 15 years (effectively I'll get a decent pay rise at that point :beer:) but if the rate changes to a commercial rate then it'll add another 10-15 years on to it by my reckoning.

I cannot believe they would change the rules for all the old student loans - we took them out on agreed terms, surely they can't change them now?!

As with Martin I am also against a commercial rate for new students too. What is the point of having a 0% rate for lower earners - they will probably never earn enough to pay it off anyway so it won't really benefit them. Perhaps some sort of half way house would work - if you earn enough to have paid it all off within 10 years of graduating, you have to pay back a bit more in that case...?

My preferred solution would be reduce the numbers going on to higher education, there's a lot of silly/fairly worthless degrees out there.

Lokolo

gmang wrote: »

Right. If you (or usually your parents) are wealthy and willing enough then you can pay your fees up front and don't bother taking out a loan. Then there is no interest. However even at the current fee levels, once you include living costs that's probably going to be £8k-10k per year, so ~£30k in total for a standard degree.

Back in the late 90s when fees were not so high, some fellow students did this and took out maximum loans to feed into ISAs. It's the MSE thing to do, but it didn't half annoy the other people who were struggling by on what little they had!

You can still do that now...!

GlasWolf

jeanmd wrote: »

Just wondering who it will affect as her BF has just started this year i.e. would students already at Uni have the increase or is it just new students?

I'm just starting my penultimate year, self-funded with no grants or loans, and am worried what my final year is going to cost. There doesn't seem to be any talk of staggering the increases, but I guess this would be up to the individual institution.

My instinct tells me that the more prestigious universities will hike up the fees to maintain their exclusivity, with the rest trying to balance costs with keeping students coming through the doors. This is actually somewhat optimistic, as it does at least leave options for students without much financial backing to get in to uni. On the other hand, the richer unis will have better facilities and attract better staff, and this may re-introduce (or amplify) the snobbery of employers regarding where you got your degree from.

I have very little interest in politics, but it's all very tory, isn't it?

jeanmd

I have very little interest in politics, but it's all very tory, isn't it

Isn't it just!

The worst thing is she was originally looking at Oxford, even going down and spending a night there through her college - and loved it. She has now totally dismissed it and feels she will be better at a different uni. She's not adverse to working while studing to help with her up keep. In fact she already studies full time at college and works 16.5 hours on a weekend, so the only time she gets off is college and work holidays. She has to take her time off work between July and October, but has to work bank holiday weekends. Given the term time is September to July this leaves her very little time for herself.
I'm becoming increasingly worried that she is going to burn herself out before she graduates. I've been really good at teaching her to budget thanks to Mse. She runs a car now she's passed her test and know's it will have to go when she moves to uni. I know she will try to work as much as she can as she doesn't like borrowing from anyone. I also know the amount she would have to borrow for fees and living expences would have been a weight on her shoulders - now I really don't know how she will manage.

Sobraon

Sorry, what follows is a bit of rant and may be considered to be grumpy.

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First thing is this fees debacle only applies to England. The Welsh have reduced fees and the Scottish fees are, I believe, zero.

However, as EU citizens English students can study in other EU/EEA nations in universities on the same basis as locals.

So, Irish universities don't have tuition fees but charge a "registration fee" of 1500 Euros/yr (local students can claim this back).

In Holland Maastricht university fees are about 1600 Euros/yr and degrees are taught in English as are some degrees at Twente(?).

In Norway (EEA) fees are zero and degrees are available in English.

The Germans are also keen to expand their university offering in English, I think the fees there are about 300 Euros/semester.

Students and young people are mobile and they will respond to this price difference.

This fee plan is a real master stroke by the ConDems! We are going to export some of our best young people. In return we are going to import unskilled labour from the rest of Europe. Once our young people have gone a significant number will not come back. I could weep at the stupidity and short sightedness of the plan.

We are told that Willetts and Cable are the most intelligent members of the cabinet. Well IMHO if brains were gunpowder those two couldn't blow their noses.

Oh, and another thing to consider, we spend more supporting farmers in France via the EU CAP (1.7% of GDP) than we do supporting the best of our young people through university, universities all together cost 1.3% of GDP. I know where I would prefer to spend the money.

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I'll stop this now as I am grinding my teeth!

WelshGandalf

Sobraon wrote: »

First thing is this fees debacle only applies to England. The Welsh have reduced fees and the Scottish fees are, I believe, zero.

Wales has the same fees as England, studying in Scotland is free ONLY if you are Scottish.

In Norway (EEA) fees are zero and degrees are available in English.

...and the cost of living in general is pretty huge, higher than the UK.

Oh, and another thing to consider, we spend more supporting farmers in France via the EU CAP (1.7% of GDP) than we do supporting the best of our young people through university, universities all together cost 1.3% of GDP.

Are you really suggesting the UK spends more on French farmers than on UK universities? I'd love to see the source for that.

Not saying you're not allowed a rant but it's good to get your facts right! What's your solution then? ("don't give any money to the EU" is not an acceptable answer) How about commenting on the specifics of Martin's post (which is what this thread is supposed to be about anyway)?

Miggie

My son is 9 and has already started talking about going to uni. We don't earn very much and are in a dmp which is paying off our debts quite quickly but being in debt ourselves, the thought of him carrying debts of 30K ++, is terrifying, especially if it's at a commercial rate of interest. (we made our own mistakes, and judge ourselves harshly enough .... we're not asking for sympathy for our debt)

However, to have such huge debt for an education which my generation (uni in the late 70's) got for free or for little cost is so unfair.

I can see us selling up and moving into rented accommodation to ensure that he gets the education he deserves - however I have started suggesting that being an electrician and having his own business might be the way to go...:)

I regret voting Libdem and feel totally conned by them, no pun intended.

dizzie

Whilst I recognise that universities need extra funding, my comments are as follows:



1. We need to ensure that universities are working as efficiently as possible. I was very worried to read Aaron Porter's comments (NUS President) that university management has expanded by 30% in the last four years and that vice chancellors were awarded a 10% pay rise last year! In fact the average vice chancellor earns more than the PM and also more than the average CEO of a private company. If fees are to rise, we need to insist on Universities providing value for money. They need to be subject to scrutiny. If the money comes from the public purse (to be repaid by students on graduation), then it should come with strings attached...no way should the VC's have got a pay rise of 10% last year, when the majority of other people were forced to forgo any real pay rise and some had to take pay cuts to keep their jobs!



2. Drop out rates worry me also, from a financial perspective. Take a 3 year degree course at £7k per year....add maintenance costs...and you are looking at £11k per year or more perhaps. Then take a student, from an about average income household (say £35k per annum)...classed as too wealthy to receive financial help in the form of bursaries/grants...but perhaps with other children to provide for...too poor to provide any real and meaningful financial assistance to their kids throughout university.

Now take this student at the end of year 1...a bit disillusioned...growing increasingly worried about debt....seeing many of the graduates from the same course being unable to find graduate jobs...seeing them going to work for telesales companies or supermarkets on minimum wage afterwards. Perhaps he is thinking "£11k in debt already...Do I cut my losses and run?". What if there are others like him and the drop out rates increase - what will this do to university finances?

...and how would Universities safeguard against this? Do they build in a factor for the drop out rate (after all, they can't recruit new students onto the second and third years of a degree course to make up the empty seats!)? Does this mean that fees will include an amount that pays for lost income due to drop-outs? Will universities get students to sign a contract which obliges them to pay for the whole of their course, regardless of whether they finish it? Or will something more frightening happen...

...will Universities be more prone to cherry-picking those from the wealthiest backgrounds to keep drop-outs on financial grounds (i.e. fear of debt without the guarantee of a decent post-grad wage to pay it off) to a minimum?

bassitt74

I don't like the way that governments (regardless of who's in at that time) have taken it for granted that as a nation we will end up in debt anyway therefore why not assume that you will accrue a certain amount over your lifetime and make sure thats what you end up with after you've finished your education.

It seems to me that your life used to be worth your earning power over the course of your lifetime, partly due to the level of education you obtained. Now it appears to be valued on the amount of debt you will have and how much money businesses can make off that through high interest rates. I'm not sure I like the thought of my worth being valued in negative figures and only being viewed as a success if my 'life balance' manages to reach zero.

I'm studying a HND at a local college because it was cheaper than uni. I had planned to do a top-up degree after at uni but now I think it would be best if i got myself a job to start paying back the student loans i've needed to take out. They have been my lifeline as the course i'm taking requires me to dedicate my full time to it and the loans and maintenance grants mean i can do this without needing to work as well. Sure its tight but it is do-able.

I think I will look into finishing off my degree through the Open university as you can still get grants to cover the course fees without necessarily taking out a career development loan to pay for it. For many, having a degree now seems to be the norm which is one of the reasons they have been devalued in the workplace. To be seen as ahead of the rest, I may need to complete a masters as well.