Advisor appears to have tampered with original documents

Crazy_Saver

Hi there all you clever money experts.

I posted this yesterday but received no replies which is so unusual for this board. I think I must have posted it incorrectly so here goes again!

I am in the process of claiming against my advisor re my mis-sold endowment and have had many hurdles.

First they time barred me but when I challenged them on the "High Risk Red Letter" dates, they admitted they were wrong and lifted the time bar.

They eventually wrote to me rejecting my claim on numerous grounds none of which they seem to be able to provide signed documentation to back up.

The only piece of "signed" evidence that they have sent me appears to have been tampered with. It is a photocopy of the advisors handwritten notes with a typed box at the bottom containing mine and my husband's signatures.
The signature box looks like it is a separate piece of paper laid over the top of the handwritten notes and then the whole thing photocopied to try and make it look like an official document! Coincidentally, this "just happens" to be the only piece of evidence with the words- "explained how mortgages work" and "happy to accept this risk"

Needless to say, neither my husband or myself recall the advisor explaining any of this to us!

Have any of you experienced anything like this before?

I have spoken to the Financial Ombudsman Service who have advised me to send them copies of every communication that I have as well as filling in both of their questionaires.

Sorry if this is a bit long winded but I really have never been involved with this type of claim before and I am eternally grateful for all the help and advice that I have received from this site so far.

Thanks for listening to my rambling....

Crazy saver:money:

dunstonh

The only piece of "signed" evidence that they have

Evidence doesnt have to be signed to be recorded as evidence. It can be a document containing a list of dates of when things were done. it can be copies of those documents that were issued.

Needless to say, neither my husband or myself recall the advisor explaining any of this to us!

It generally considered that people will forget around 70% of what is told to them in an area they know nothing about. I am doing a top up investment for someone I started with last year who queried a point saying they didnt remember me saying something. I gave them the date and time it was discussed along with a copy of the information they were given at the time and they almost instantly replied "oh yes, I remember now". I cannot remember most of the interviews I did in the 90s. Yet its strange that many people claim to have crystal clear memory of exactly what was said. Of course, that isnt true so the documentary evidence is very important in these things.

Have any of you experienced anything like this before?

You mean, has anyone experienced fraud? Its certainly possible in any walk of life so there is no reason to think it couldnt happen here.

I have spoken to the Financial Ombudsman Service who have advised me to send them copies of every communication that I have as well as filling in both of their questionaires.

Sorry if this is a bit long winded but I really have never been involved with this type of claim before and I am eternally grateful for all the help and advice that I have received from this site so far.

I think its best to leave it in the hands of the FOS and point out your concerns. They arent too bad in cases like this. There was a recent case in their monthly publication where a firm denied doing something and the FOS digged deeper and found that someone from the firm had signed as a witness to a document that proved they knew about it.

Apart from that, you need to be 100% sure before you go accusing them of fraud.

Crazy_Saver

Thanks Dunstonh.

My, I must sound like a "moneygrabbing claimant" to you. Please believe that I'm not.

With hindsight, it's easy for me to look back and see how naive myself and my husband were when we took out our endowment. It was very easy for the advisor to talk us both into cashing in the endowment that we already had and to convince us that we should take out another one. We were young and yes, probably a bit stupid. I can honestly say that it was about 2 years later on a night out with friends that someone actually explained to me what a repayment mortgage was. When they told me that they had one, I thought they were daft to have one when they could have an endowment like us. After all, we were looking at a lump sum of around 60k in our pocket at the end of the term. We really believed this!

Maybe our advisor did do everything in good faith, maybe she believed that we were going to be "quids in" as well. If that is the case then maybe the company that she works for hadn't given her the appropriate training needed to enable her to give us the understanding necessary for us to make an educated decision on what is the biggest investment of our life.

We are now looking at a £31,000.00 shortfall which really worries us. We have already changed our mortgage to "part and part" but we are now finding that the shortfall is getting too big for us to be able to keep transferring more of it over to repayment as well as keeping the endowment going.

We contacted our advisor in good faith, but they have not exactly been forthcoming with either information or assistance and when we received what appears to be a "mocked up" document we felt we had no alternative other than to turn to the FOS for help.

My original intention was never to stir up trouble and the thought of accusing people of fraud isn't something that I relish. The FOS did say that maybe I should contact the police but as you have quite rightly pointed out, I would rather the FOS looked at my case first as they have told me that they will ask to see the original documents which is something I have had difficulty in obtaining.

I hope you understand my concerns,
Regards Crazysaver.

P.s., I must add that we now have a new financial advisor who is absolutely wonderful. Honest,thorough and always takes the time to make sure I/we fully understand and we are always given time to look over things in our own time at home before any final decisions are ever made.

dunstonh

My, I must sound like a "moneygrabbing claimant" to you. Please believe that I'm not.

Nope. You have said nothing to suggest that.

Maybe our advisor did do everything in good faith, maybe she believed that we were going to be "quids in" as well.

You wouldnt find many that would have done them in anything other than good faith. The issue goes a lot higher up and is the result of some fundamential changes which have actually made homeowners much more financially better off than had the old way been continued. The old way would have seen the endowment pay a surplus.

If that is the case then maybe the company that she works for hadn't given her the appropriate training

Skills are better today than they were in the past but there are still some very low skilled advisers out there who believe everything they are told by their employer.

We are now looking at a £31,000.00 shortfall which really worries us. We have already changed our mortgage to "part and part" but we are now finding that the shortfall is getting too big for us to be able to keep transferring more of it over to repayment as well as keeping the endowment going.

You should get a review of the endowment and if necessary swap over to repayment or a better repayment vehicle. Throwing good money after bad isnt going to help you and hoping a bad endowment will improve is unlikely as well. The good endowments have already seen improvements. The bad ones are not seeing any improvement or getting worse.

We contacted our advisor in good faith, but they have not exactly been forthcoming with either information or assistance and when we received what appears to be a "mocked up" document we felt we had no alternative other than to turn to the FOS for help. ...

...My original intention was never to stir up trouble and the thought of accusing people of fraud isn't something that I relish.

The thing you have to be careful is that most advisers dont handle complaints against themselves. So, is a third party likely to commit fraud when they themselves have no financial gain for doing so?

Was the complaint handled by an insurance company, network or locally in-house?

P.s., I must add that we now have a new financial advisor who is absolutely wonderful. Honest,thorough and always takes the time to make sure I/we fully understand and we are always given time to look over things in our own time at home before any final decisions are ever made

Good. Now give them a bell on Monday and get them to review your mortgage situation before it becomes too late.

Crazy_Saver

Thanks Dunstonh.

Yes the complaint is being dealt with in house.

The original advice was given during late 1990 and early 1991.
The advisor is still working for the company who are now trading under a different name. I believe they have either been bought out or have amalgamated with another company. Who are a very large firm in "The City".
The complaint has been dealt with by their own Compliance Manager.


We are currently in the process of re-mortgaging again.

We are going along the route of £20,000 repayment & £40,000 endowment.
The original endowment policy is for £60k but is now showing the afore mentioned £31k shortfall.

To cover the extra shortfall, we have extended our mortgage for another 10 years which is giving us much needed cash in our pocket at the present while we need it(2 young kids to support) and time to reconsider our finances when I am able to go back to full time employment as I am only part time while the kids are at school.

I am wary of surrendering the endowment as I have heard so much over the years about "Never Cash in your Endowment".

Thanks for your advice - by the way how do you do a "quote" I keep trying but I end up with the whole message quoted.

dunstonh

We are going along the route of £20,000 repayment & £40,000 endowment.
The original endowment policy is for £60k but is now showing the afore mentioned £31k shortfall.

May not be the best option (probably isnt if its a bad endowment). It may be cheaper to go with a full repayment and ditch the endowment.

I am wary of surrendering the endowment as I have heard so much over the years about "Never Cash in your Endowment".

Yes. The tied companies told all their employees to say that years ago and it worked. However, you will not find any independent say that. The regulator has also issued a number of papers over the last few years giving guidence on how and what to do with old "bad" policies and effectively encouraging independents to get people out of bad plans into good.

Tied advisers cannot recommend cancellation of a plan (officially).

The complaint has been dealt with by their own Compliance Manager.

Ok, so the compliance officer would be the one acting fraudulently if it is true. What does he gain from it? nothing financially and he would be sacked and barred from financial services for life if he was caught. What is his incentive to do it? Greed can make some people do silly things but would they do those same things for no reason?

by the way how do you do a "quote" I keep trying but I end up with the whole message quoted.

Highlight the segment of the post you want to copy (left click and drag over the test) and then paste it in the reply box. Then highlight the text in the reply box you want to quote and click on the speech box you see in on right of the buttons.

Crazy_Saver

Highlight the segment of the post you want to copy (left click and drag over the test) and then paste it in the reply box. Then highlight the text in the reply box you want to quote and click on the speech box you see in on right of the buttons.

YES!!!!
I DID IT!
I MANAGED TO DO A QUOTE!!!!!

Thanks Dunsonh Is there nothing you can't help with!:T

Back to the serious stuff.

Thanks for your help so far. I will probably think about cashing in the endowment when all this horrible claim stuff is over with.

The regulator has also issued a number of papers over the last few years giving guidence on how and what to do with old "bad" policies

Do you mean the FSA?

Ian_W

It was very easy for the advisor to talk us both into cashing in the endowment that we already had and to convince us that we should take out another one.

You missed this one dunston - isn't churning, assuming it is proveable, evidence on it's own of mis-selling? Or have I got that wrong?

dunstonh

Yes, you are right, I missed it. If it wasnt documented and shown to be good advice, then that could be a good enough reason for the FOS. Make sure its mentioned in the info you give the FOS. Nice spot Ian.

Do you mean the FSA?

Yes.

Crazy_Saver

isn't churning, assuming it is proveable, evidence on it's own of mis-selling? Or have I got that wrong?

Thanks Ian W

But I'm not sure how we prove our case on this one.

We used the letter generator on the "which" site and used the paragraph stating I already had an endowment and the advisor told me to cash it in and sold me a new policy.

The Final Response letter is covering this point by saying

Whilst I accept that you already had an endowment, the issue of cost was of the utmost importance and the move was only possible with the added funds provided by the mointhly saving produced by effecting the new endowment policy. **** was chosed because it was cheaper on a month-by month basis by the sum of £9.10p. **** was considered but their premium would have been £80.00 and the cost deemed too high, as were the alternative costs of a repayment loan.

Is this enough to cover them as we have no other documentary proof of this conversation?

I have left out the company names as I'm not sure if I am allowed to use them.

Thanks for your help

Crazy Saver

dunstonh

Churning when churning is best advice is acceptable. That paragraph could get easily satisfy the FOS.