Plastic bags - environmentally friendly solution??

abisnail75

I came across this interesting survey that was done about plastic bags and how good or bad they are for the environment. It suggests that polythene bags are actually the environmentally friendly solution when you look at the facts. :undecided

http://www.cromwellpolythene.co.uk/survey/results.htm

I know, I know, you're all throwing your hands up in horror and shouting at me but read the reponses of the survey (second page onwards) - it's interesting reading and made me question things.

Whaddya think? Should we campaign for plastic bags?

I like being controversial!

Contains_Mild_Peril

The thought that paper bags may actually do more environmental harm than plastic had crossed my mind: I gave the matter some thought because I've noticed that fictional American TV programmes always seem to have paper bags without handles used for groceries, which is rather impractical, but I know plastic carrier bags are widely used in real-life America (though I've never been there) because I've seen loads in documentary footage. I wonder if it's just convention or if there's actually some sort of official guideline stating that grocery bags depicted in US TV programmes should be paper, and that got me to wondering if it's such a good idea. I can believe that plastic bags might actually do less harm.
Some of the other arguments in that article seemed unconvincing though. They're saying that "bag for life" type strong carrier bags designed to be reused many times use so much more material and energy to produce and deliver that they need to be reused at least 4 times to be worth it, and many consumers don't. However, they have no statistics on average number of uses of these bags, which would have been an interesting question to include in the survey (though a lot of the answers would be likely to be wild guesses). Some people hardly reuse them if at all, but others reuse them many times, and I'd be very surprised if the average number of times they're used is actually as little as 4.
Their argument about "no bags" potentially resulting in food wastage is largely irrelevant, since the survey was about plastic bags (with a strong implication that this referred chiefly to carrier bags), not about the plastic packaging containing individual food items, which most people would not generally categorise as bags.
I often use an old-fashioned shopping trolley, and I'm sure it made a considerable "carbon footprint" initially, but if we assume an average lifespan of 8-10 years, I'm sure it pays its way in the long term.

CM86_2

Sainsbury's are going to be introducing environmentally friendly carrier bags in the next week or so, they're bright orange and made of 33% recycled plastic.

Penelope_Penguin

Contains_Mild_Peril wrote:

They're saying that "bag for life" type strong carrier bags designed to be reused many times use so much more material and energy to produce and deliver that they need to be reused at least 4 times to be worth it, and many consumers don't. However, they have no statistics on average number of uses of these bags, which would have been an interesting question to include in the survey (though a lot of the answers would be likely to be wild guesses). Some people hardly reuse them if at all, but others reuse them many times, and I'd be very surprised if the average number of times they're used is actually as little as 4.

Morning! I've been reusing my carriers for years (I keep a stack in the boot of my car, and a couple in my handbag). They must get used many more than 4 times before they're consigned to being bin liners. In the past I've always been treated as if I'm a bit eccentric.

Tesco have recently introduced giving club card points for reusing bags. When I was there earlier in the week, I looked around to see how many other people were doing this, and was astonished to see no-one :eek: :eek: :eek: So this may well bring your average down to 4 times.

The worst case of wasteful use of carriers I ever saw was going to a friend's house as she was unpacking her shopping. She threw all the new carriers away, then gave her son and mine a fresh carrier off a roll to go into the garden to collect windfalls. She would hear nothing against this, as she asserted that those she'd just brought home from the supermarket were in some way contaminated. :eek:

Penny. x

Ksandra

Just don't fall into the trap of believing the supermarkets that they recycle their carrier bags. I have first hand experience and know that all the bags placed in the bins at supermarkets for recycling actually go straight into a compactor and off to landfill.

The market for plastic bags for recycling is practically non-existant, as carrier bags are at the bottom end of the uses for plastic.

abisnail75

I must admit when I read the bit about paper bags contributing to methane production in landfill sites and being heavier to transport etc. I thought they had a good point.

Must admit, I'm not quite sure what would happen if there were no supermarket plastic bags at all. I use them for all sorts - quite often as bin bags so that's only one re-use but I probably get a couple of uses out of them. Not sure about the 4 times though... maybe I'm not so green as some of you out there

Bag for life is something I've never really used much as they just hold too much and are too heavy to carry. Anyone else agree? I prefer to use the cotton bags that they use in Germany if I re-use.

Not sure I'm convinced about the damaged produce argument myself. Supermarkets already sell loose veg so how do they package those. They're not convincing me that 50% of that gets damaged. Maybe they should design re-usable packaging - particularly for drinks. Milk bottles/pop bottles anyone?

Glad I've provoked some debate though! :T

A.

Contains_Mild_Peril

abisnail75 wrote:

Must admit, I'm not quite sure what would happen if there were no supermarket plastic bags at all. I use them for all sorts - quite often as bin bags so that's only one re-use but I probably get a couple of uses out of them. Not sure about the 4 times though... maybe I'm not so green as some of you out there

Bag for life is something I've never really used much as they just hold too much and are too heavy to carry. Anyone else agree? I prefer to use the cotton bags that they use in Germany if I re-use.

If you were inclined to use a plastic "bag for life" you wouldn't use it as a bin liner after only 1 shopping trip though, would you? I'm sure ordinary carrier bags are used an average of less than 4 times, but I doubt if that's true of 10p bags. Last time I bought one, I used it probably about 20-30 times before it got worn out, then I returned it to the shop and swapped it for a new one. I tend to use my current one for car boot sales, for which I also save any particularly big and/or strong "free" carrier bags I acquire.

CM86_2

Ksandra wrote:

Just don't fall into the trap of believing the supermarkets that they recycle their carrier bags. I have first hand experience and know that all the bags placed in the bins at supermarkets for recycling actually go straight into a compactor and off to landfill.

The market for plastic bags for recycling is practically non-existant, as carrier bags are at the bottom end of the uses for plastic.

I used to work for a supermarket and all the plastic bags there, along with all the plastic used (and cardboard), went to be recycled... It makes them look good to investors, saves on landfill £££ etc...

Moggles_2

Why does it come down to a choice between paper and plastic? Why do we need so many disposable carrier bags?

One or two plastic carriers are handy for keeping goods dry in wet weather and lining bins, but we're all offered far more carrier bags than we can possibly use. Most are either incinerated or end up in land-fill.

This is an appalling waste of resources. With oil prices soaring, plastic is too valuable to bury or burn. The energy consumed replacing the vast quantities of plastic that is destroyed, must also be taken into account. IMO, we need an eco-tax on plastic carrier bags like they have in Ireland. Shoppers would soon revert to shopping bags and shopping trolleys, if they had to pay for plastic carriers.

The concluding paragraph about energy from waste plants is pure fantasy as well. Here in the UK, we are facing a growing waste mountain and energy crisis. Some councils have tried to kill two birds by burning waste to produce energy. Money-grabbing firms were only too keen to jump on the bandwagon, proudly trumpeting their "Green" credentials. Unfortunately, it simply does not work. Where energy-from-waste plants have been built, everything Green campaigners predicted could go wrong, did - plus incidents they didn’t dream of!

Rapid progress towards a *no burn, zero waste strategy* is the key to waste management. This requires effort, but is by far the cheaper option and miles better for the environment.

liz545

I'm inclined to take this survey with a hefty pinch of sodium chloride, as it's conducted by a plastic bag manufacturer! I think ultimately a charge for all plastic bags is the way forward, as seen in France, Germany etc. I do take their point that not everyone uses the 'bag for life' enough times to make it worthwhile - I was just on holiday in France with OH's family, and despite costing 1.5 euro each they kept forgetting to take the bags for life with them to the shops. At the end of the two week holiday they'd bought nearly a dozen sturdy bags!
As regards the number of bags that end up in landfill, how much of that is a result of people using them for bin/dog poo bags? Our bins are all lined with carrier bags; we've got so used to using reuseable bags that we recently had to beg some from our neighbours! And if people are using carrier bags to contain the waste they send to landfill, would a move to compostable/degradeable bags improve the situation?

ETA I just noticed the paragraph about reducing the number of bags used, which says

In Europe, only 2% of the oil bag is used for all plastics packaging ...a ban or reduction in the number of plastic bags would have no significant effect on conservation of oil reserves.

Is this including the large swathes of Europe that have a bag ban/tax? I would imagine that taking Europe as a whole the amount of bags used would be fairly low, but what about data relating only to the UK?

suze0303

I couldn't agree more that this survey should be regarded as biased because of its origins.

And anyway, they are talking about plastic bags 'only' being 1% of all rubbish. In fact 1% of rubbish is a staggering amount, if you are aware of how much refuse is generated in the UK every year.

I use my bags for life all the time. It's hard at to remember at first, but eventually it becomes a habit. However it is done, it cannot ever be regarded as be bad to reduce the amount of plastic thrown away in this country.

Susan