'Is it time for a graduate tax?' poll discussion

Best_Auntie

Two years ago as a mature student I studied hard for my degree in my spare time whilst working full time and paying tax. I did not qualify for any grants, loans or support and paid all my own fees plus books, travel to uni etc. Although it has helped me with my job it has not earned me any more money as I was already near the top of my field. Any across the board graduate tax would be massively unfair, why should people such as myself who paid their own way and continues to pay tax whilst studying have to pay for the privilidge again via tax.

There would need to be a way of differentiating between those who paid full fees and those who were supported otherwise it would completely discourage mature students and scupper the governments aim to upskill the workforce.

olly300

Just like to point out the NUS supports graduate tax.

This is from their website - http://www.nus.org.uk/en/Campaigns/Funding-Our-Future/6-Big-Myths-about-Graduate-Tax/

1. Most graduates would pay much more than they do now
This is nonsense. In the NUS proposal, earners in the lowest quintile would overall pay less than £500, those in the next quintile about half than now, and those in the middle quintile roughly the same as now, it’s only those who really benefit that would pay more.
A graduate tax has also been described as “the student loan you never pay off”. This is also nonsense- in the NUS model there’s a 25 year limit and an overall maximum amount to ensure fairness

There is more on their website to burst other myths.

udydudy

I think for once martin put options not really viable.. the option where graduate pay higher tax permanently or its freebeee and everyone else pays is really no financially viable options in peoples minds its like saying either penalise people working or give benefits to non-workers(similarity being everybody would opt to study as it is all paid irrespective of passing!!! just like benefit supported idle workers) and everybody pays!!!..

I would have said maybe one option would have been graduates opt to pay higher tax until the excess tax pays off the graduate loans...

ThinkingOfLinking

udydudy wrote: »

I would have said maybe one option would have been graduates opt to pay higher tax until the excess tax pays off the graduate loans...

But that's how it is nowadays, pretty much; any graduate with outstanding student loan debts, who is earning £15,000 or more, has repayments taken from their pay packet directly by HMRC at something like 9%, if I remember correctly...and this sum is on top of paying tax and national insurance like everyone else...

fatal1955

The problem is the EU - its rules require students from EU countries get the same deal as UK students but of course they won't pay UK income tax, so either alternative to the current system means some or all UK taxpayers pay for EU students (but not UK students) to get a free education!

olly300

nitapet wrote: »

Two years ago as a mature student I studied hard for my degree in my spare time whilst working full time and paying tax. I did not qualify for any grants, loans or support and paid all my own fees plus books, travel to uni etc. Although it has helped me with my job it has not earned me any more money as I was already near the top of my field. Any across the board graduate tax would be massively unfair, why should people such as myself who paid their own way and continues to pay tax whilst studying have to pay for the privilidge again via tax.

Just like to point out you didn't pay your own way.

While you received no obvious funding, some of the money that universities receive comes from general taxation.

The only higher education students who pay all of their own fees are those who are non-EU foreign students.

It's a good idea to have a look at what they are charged to see what your actual degree is suppose to cost.

olly300

fatal1955 wrote: »

The problem is the EU - its rules require students from EU countries get the same deal as UK students but of course they won't pay UK income tax, so either alternative to the current system means some or all UK taxpayers pay for EU students (but not UK students) to get a free education!

A university in Amsterdam was recently trying to recruit UK students as the fees are cheaper there and UK students get funding for support from the Dutch government. The courses are taught in English.

juliamarsh

craig86 wrote: »

Whereas in the past the vast majority of students got O-levels, a few got A-levels, and even fewer got degrees; it has now shifted so that A-levels are becoming the new O-levels, degrees are becoming the new A-levels, and PhDs are becoming the new degrees. It's a worrying trend, probably related to the political desire to show improving exam results - regardless of whether educational standards are actually improving. (I remember, when I was doing my A-levels, being shown an exam paper from 10-20 years ago. Wow, it was hard!)

/rant]

Tellingly one of my friends watched a programme recently and it turned out that exactly the same questions were on an A2 Maths paper as were on our Maths 'O' level paper in 1975. Says it all, doesn't it?

juliamarsh

matchmade wrote: »

Speaking as a university lecturer in English, I'm afraid the quality of students has been dropping since the early 1990s. The best are as good as they've ever been, but the "long tail" has been getting worse and there are more and more of them with the same number of teaching staff. At the same time the unviersity sector is being casualised, as happened in the FE sector in the 1980s: I estimate 50% of staff are now on short-term contracts.

The principal weaknesses of contemporary students are:
- they spend way, way too much time working in term-time on low-paid jobs rather than concentrating on their studies. This is a massive change from my time at university, when modest grants and a willingness to go into debt meant almost no one worked when they were meant to be studying.
- they don't know how to write essays - they are used to a modular, cut-and-paste tick-box culture and spoon-fed teaching at A-level, so the majority lack independence of thought and simply have no idea how to use a library or research a topic properly. They think lecturers are there to tell them what to do and what to think. Unbelievably, you can get an A-level in English nowadays and only read 3 or 4 books over the two years of your course.
- the standards of spelling and grammar have slumped. They are very rarely taught in schools now. What are English secondary school teachers actually doing in their classes?

In my view university entrance should be made much harder and the numbers of students at least halved. The ones who don't get in shuold seek on the job tranining and vocational part-time courses, just as people used to do. There are too many mickey-mouse degrees and too many unprepared students who really need to get a life and do something more productive with their time. By making the university sector smaller and more selective, with higher standards, a degree might mean something again, and the HE sector would cost less all round.

I totally agree with every point you have made. My sister has recently retired after working for over 30 years as a lecturer in English at a French university. During her final few years she became totally demoralised both by the calibre of the students she was asked to teach and by their attitude towards their studies. She still came across the odd exceptional student but they were few and far between. Most showed little enthusiasm for their subject and even less initiative in independent study, they would embark upon conversations on their mobile phones in the middle of a lecture without even having the good manners to leave the room, they did not hand essays in on time and if and when they eventually arrived they were of poor quality - she would receive a bunch of 'cut and paste' essays with no original ideas or opinions and one student even had the nerve to cut and paste a section from a critique my sister had actually written and try to pass it off as their own work without even noticing that the author was their own lecturer!! They acted as if they were doing her a favour by turning up at all and woe betide her if she actually failed anyone because their work wasn't up to scratch! She felt that the vast majority of them should not be there at all and I suspect it is the same in the UK - as you suggest, the number of university places should be drastically curtailed and entry requirements made much more stringent, then maybe standards might return to what they were in the late 70s when I attended, and maybe if there were substantially fewer students the Government could even reintroduce a more generous Grant system so that students aren't forced to take jobs when they should be concentrating on their studies.

At the same time, employers should stop asking for degree qualifications where these are not necessary to do the job and be prepared to offer on-the-job training - since the 80s there has been an increasing trend for employers to attach more importance to a degree than to years of relevant work experience, this is wrong and only perpetuates the idea that a degree is a necessity in order to forge a successful career. You are right in saying there are two many Mickey Mouse degrees - is there actually a degree in Mickey Mouse studies? I wouldn't be surprised as apparently one can study David Beckham at university although that might be just my kids pulling my leg! I can say though that on looking through the Open Day programme for Birmingham University which I am visiting tomorrow with my son, I noticed that there was a degree available called 'Applied Golf Management Studies' - is this really an appropriate subject for study at university or is it me who is out of touch with reality?!?!

I suppose it is not surprising with today's computer culture that young people don't know how to use a library for research or write an essay properly - in my day we had no choice as we didn't have computers! My university - the prestigious UCL - had one enormous computer which was housed in a massive 'computer room', the noise was deafening and it seemed to do little other than spew out reams and reams of paper!! As for the schools, I can't understand why they seem unable to teach correct grammar and spelling although many of the teachers are sloppy themselves so what chance is there for the kids? My children believe such things 'don't matter' and maybe I am just a fuddy-duddy old pedant but I am shocked and angered by these falling standards, it is hardly surprising that these pupils end up as second-rate university students years down the line. My youngest was in Year 7 last year and I can honestly say that 80% of the homework tasks he was set (now called 'enrichment' at his school instead of homework which says it all and is a misnomer if ever there was one!) were of no educational benefit whatsoever and mainly seemed to involve designing leaflets for this or that, and this is at a good school recently rated outstanding by OFSTED so what hope is there? Bring back the 3 Rs I say, antiquated old fossil that I am!

My oh my this has turned into one serious rant, sorry everyone, I will get off here and go and do something useful!!

emx_3

I believe that having graduates pay more tax would not work in todays situation. I have just graduated, applied for all jobs going which relate to my degree (I studied early years care and education) and have been told either I am overqualified for the position I have applied for (if I didnt want the job I wouldn't have applied for it!) or that I do not have enough experience, therefore my three years of studying has got me no-where . I always had jobs whilst I was at uni (in some instances working three jobs over the holidays) and still have £10,000 debt from university, which is rising due to interest on this. I now work full-time in a job which you don't even need gcse's to work in, with basic national wage, so if I were to get taxed more on this than others I would not be able to live. The current system I believe is the only way which not deter people from going to university and trying to live their dreams, without penalising those who want to aim higher, and ensuring that those who do not study at university do not pay more for those who want to.