Upper Tribunal and my own Ltd Company

LittleJohn

Well, my ex has been granted leave to appeal to the Upper Tribunal. The reason being "The grounds of appeal set in the letter ... merit further consideration.".

The directions given are that the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission are to make submissions, then me and finally my ex.

The letter says that not enough consideration was given to my financial arrangement, paying myself a low salary from my own limited company, assets held in the company and the First tier Tribunal referencing the wrong sections in the Child Support Regulations.

I think my question is can the Upper Tribunal open up the whole saga again as in the First-Tier, or is it restricted in any way with what it can re-exam?

What is the best way of preparing my "defense"?

I have now received the submission from the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission and a previous case is cited where all the income into a Limited Company is used as income for the purpose of a CSA assessment.
My fee income was a third higher two years ago when the effective date of this appeal is deemed to be under consideration. As I am now earning less, how do I go about getting myself reassessed on my new reduced income, following any new Tribunal decision?

I presume the CSA will use the direction from the Tribunal which is based on my earning two years ago.

So I could be over-paying for quite some time!

Thank you

CSA_Help

LittleJohn wrote: »

Well, my ex has been granted leave to appeal to the Upper Tribunal. The reason being "The grounds of appeal set in the letter ... merit further consideration.".

The directions given are that the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission are to make submissions, then me and finally my ex.

The letter says that not enough consideration was given to my financial arrangement, paying myself a low salary from my own limited company, assets held in the company and the First tier Tribunal referencing the wrong sections in the Child Support Regulations.

I think my question is can the Upper Tribunal open up the whole saga again as in the First-Tier, or is it restricted in any way with what it can re-exam?

What is the best way of preparing my "defense"?

I have now received the submission from the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission and a previous case is cited where all the income into a Limited Company is used as income for the purpose of a CSA assessment.
My fee income was a third higher two years ago when the effective date of this appeal is deemed to be under consideration. As I am now earning less, how do I go about getting myself reassessed on my new reduced income, following any new Tribunal decision?

I presume the CSA will use the direction from the Tribunal which is based on my earning two years ago.

So I could be over-paying for quite some time!

Thank you

I tak it you had the relevant tax returns etc and who the dividend shareholder was and who is paid to etc ?

LittleJohn

I do not take divs, only a fairly low basic salary, I have other income from other business interests. This added together is a fair amount, I can live on it and the CSA have based their assessments on it up till now. Ex has seen the pot in the company and is looking for that bit more. Company has been audited and tax returns submitted etc etc.

CSA_Help

LittleJohn wrote: »

I do not take divs, only a fairly low basic salary, I have other income from other business interests. This added together is a fair amount, I can live on it and the CSA have based their assessments on it up till now. Ex has seen the pot in the company and is looking for that bit more. Company has been audited and tax returns submitted etc etc.

The CSA will asses you on all your income. Have you declared your business interest income ?

LittleJohn

Yes, all declared to the CSA. Ex has appealed, lost at the First teir Tribunal, but now have a hearing at the Upper Tribunal!

It's the Tribunal service who will be using the retained profits in the company as "extra" income, lifing the corporate veil...

CSA_Help

LittleJohn wrote: »

Yes, all declared to the CSA. Ex has appealed, lost at the First teir Tribunal, but now have a hearing at the Upper Tribunal!

It's the Tribunal service who will be using the retained profits in the company as "extra" income, lifing the corporate veil...

Is the tribunal qualified to make that assumption ? don't think so .

Someone may be along later that has more experience than me. I am at tribunal just now

Sidekick_2

Well, my ex has been granted leave to appeal to the Upper Tribunal. The reason being "The grounds of appeal set in the letter ... merit further consideration.".

Appeal to the of the Upper Tribunal can only be points of law.

The directions given are that the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission are to make submissions, then me and finally my ex.

The letter says that not enough consideration was given to my financial arrangement, paying myself a low salary from my own limited company, assets held in the company and the First tier Tribunal referencing the wrong sections in the Child Support Regulations.

What sections of the child suport regulations to the referral?

I think my question is can the Upper Tribunal open up the whole saga again as in the First-Tier, or is it restricted in any way with what it can re-exam?

Yes, the Upper Tribunal can look at the appeal again and overturn it.

What is the best way of preparing my "defense"?

Do you have legal representation?

I have now received the submission from the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission and a previous case is cited where all the income into a Limited Company is used as income for the purpose of a CSA assessment.

The income of Limited Company is different from the income of an individual, this should only be applied where a variation has been granted such as’ lifestyle inconsistent with income’.
Which case was cited?

My fee income was a third higher two years ago when the effective date of this appeal is deemed to be under consideration. As I am now earning less, how do I go about getting myself reassessed on my new reduced income, following any new Tribunal decision?

I presume the CSA will use the direction from the Tribunal which is based on my earning two years ago.

So I could be over-paying for quite some time!

You should apply to the CSA for a reassessment the grounds of that your income has changed otherwise it will continue to be based on the original assessment.

bdt1

Sorry, cannot say much, but if I were you I would as a matter of urgency get in touch and suscribe with NACSA, they have complaex case senior advisors who in my experience are worth their weight in gold!

We have been through 1st Tier Tribunal twice now, and won both cases, but expecting PWC to try the 'points of law' in order to proceed the last successful hearing to Upper Tribunal, so be interested in replies.

Did the PWC attend the 1st Tier hearing, as surely, someone would have realised incorrect law was being cited/referred to? Was there a senior DWP Accountant present? As there was in our case (my hubs is also S/E), in order to oversee all tax returns, profits,financial questions, the questions we answered were very probing, and no stone was left unturned, just cannot see how if all parties were present at original hearing, plus DWP Accountant, Tribunal Judge and CSA Representative, how on Earth has this happened? The opportunity was there on the day, for any further investigative questions/evidence to be made, by any of the parties involved.

Mind, we were blatantly honest at our hearing, as to be honest, after CSA bailiffs have been sent to your home, they gained a LO, CCJ, and charge on our home, what more could they have stripped from us, we had nothing to lose, and only wanted justice, so had no skeletons in the cupboards, but I know not all s/e people are like that, no judgement being made - just saying not everyone declares everything as we did

bdt1

LittleJohn wrote: »

Yes, all declared to the CSA. Ex has appealed, lost at the First teir Tribunal, but now have a hearing at the Upper Tribunal!

It's the Tribunal service who will be using the retained profits in the company as "extra" income, lifing the corporate veil...

Sorry just do not understand this one, if it is a Ltd Company then it is legally the Company profits and not yours as an individual, and as you do not pay yourself dividends, then how can they say any of this is profitable/assessable income?

Same goes if the company went bust, it would be bankrupt and not you as an individual. You would be free to trade again as an individual, but not the company

Please get in touch with NACSA

Sidekick_2

bdt1 wrote: »

Sorry, cannot say much, but if I were you I would as a matter of urgency get in touch and suscribe with NACSA, they have complaex case senior advisors who in my experience are worth their weight in gold!

A must !;)

LittleJohn

Sidekick wrote: »

What sections of the child suport regulations to the referral?

Looks like Reg 19(4), the agument is that the NRP could take money out of the company for uncetain future earnings and retraining, rather than retaining in the company. From my point of view it is better left in the company as training is an allowable tax expense etc.

Sidekick wrote: »

Do you have legal representation?

No, had that at the First Tier Tribunal, and I felt that the Tribunal was very user friendly and little value was added in having somebody there!

Sidekick wrote: »

The income of Limited Company is different from the income of an individual, this should only be applied where a variation has been granted such as’ lifestyle inconsistent with income’. Which case was cited?

That is what I thought, looks like a Tribunal can remove the corporate veil if it wishes...

Sidekick wrote: »

You should apply to the CSA for a reassessment the grounds of that your income has changed otherwise it will continue to be based on the original assessment.

But... my assessed income was not been changed as yet and I presume will be based on what is in the company accounts, which are always a year behind. I will always overpay the CM by using the company income!

bdt1 wrote: »

Did the PWC attend the 1st Tier hearing, as surely, someone would have realised incorrect law was being cited/referred to? Was there a senior DWP Accountant present?

Yes. Yes. You would think that the judge would have known better..., however...

bdt1 wrote: »

Sorry just do not understand this one, if it is a Ltd Company then it is legally the Company profits and not yours as an individual, and as you do not pay yourself dividends, then how can they say any of this is profitable/assessable income?

Looks like the Tribunal can apply the law how there see fit.

bdt1 wrote: »

Please get in touch with NACSA

Yes, I am a member and I sent off an email last Friday, I am just a bit impatient to get some answers and see if anybody was been down this path before...

Thanks eveybody, has anybody been down this route before?

LJ