FTB's "Missing Deal Of A Lifetime"

Graham_Devon

julieq wrote: »

Me dumb things down?

That's a new one. :rotfl:

As Marvin once said "it gives me a headache even trying to think down to your level".

Whatever you want to call it.

Saying everything is ok, because reposessions are low....ignoring the new reposession criteria.

Saying the numbers benefitting from low rates are miniscule as not many on trackers....ignoring SVR's.

Maybe dumbing down was the wrong word. So we'll change it to being ignorant.

DervProf

julieq wrote: »

I'm sorry but if your entire life strategy revolves around stuffing money into a savings account and minimising risk, you're going to be left behind by people who do introduce some level of risk into their lives. Stamping your feet and calling for moral rewards for prudence isn't going to change that.

Not all people who introduce risk into their lives will get ahead. Some of those will get left behind, big time.

"Stamping your feet and calling for moral rewards for prudence isn't going to change that."

True, but throwing caution to the wind can lead to real trouble. It`s all about balance, and the balance tipped in the favour of financial folly. Prudence is now on the menu again, but the fat cats still want their full cream diet. :undecided

julieq

False dichotomy Graham. Just because repossession rates are low because the mortgage scenario has changed doesn't mean they would increase significantly if we returned to the previous position. The fact they were affordable previously proves that.

DervProf

julieq wrote: »

No, they're taking a risk with their money in the hope of a return.

Nothing different there than any other business.

You don't want to take the risk, you should take the return you can get and be happy with it.

So, savers start to make a bit of noise, because interest rates have been cut to record low levels, and they should be quiet, and happy with what they get.

If and when interest rates start to rise, I wonder how much noise property investors/mortgage payers will make ? Tip : Invest in earplugs.

Graham_Devon

julieq wrote: »

False dichotomy Graham. Just because repossession rates are low because the mortgage scenario has changed doesn't mean they would increase significantly if we returned to the previous position. The fact they were affordable previously proves that.

Are you on a wind up?

Malcolm.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Maybe dumbing down was the wrong word. So we'll change it to being ignorant.

Don't get your nappy in a twist.

Sibley

Credit where it's due here.

Julieq is the best bull in the history of house price crash arguments. Shes the guvnor.

I admit I can't hold court with some of you yuppies. I'm more your chav type bull. I post what I see on a daily basis and I know it twists some of you bears up that what I say normally comes true.:rotfl:

Now, back to business.

LIAR LOANS.

This is another popular crasher term.

Liar loans are people who exaggerate their earnings to get a mortgage.
Apparently crashers would never stoop this low

Except......

EVERY business I've ever had dealings with (and that ranges from FTSE size to one man bands) has lied to get finance. EVERY homeowner usually gets their boss to make a BS letter up as a guarantee stating what the bloke earns etc. It's been going on since time began. The boss is then happy because you're bolted up to the eyeballs in debt and won't jack your job in.

I promise you crashers. When and IF you ever apply for a mortgage you will get as much dough as you can afford to pay back. You'll beg steal or borrow like everyone else.

A decent mortgage adviser is one who knows where all the easy loans come from. He will put you in touch with a building society or bank that dishing out the dough. Great help and very welcome.

Everyone was happy and made loads of dosh in this environment.

My money is on things returning to 2007 levels as house prices going down is not really in the majorities interest.

I always said house prices would never drop mainly because homeowners wouldn't allow it to happen.

Lucky for you I'm not one who likes to give it the large one. :rotfl:

DervProf

julieq wrote: »

Classic punter reply: "it's all a fix". :rotfl:

There may well be an all time high number of mortgage frauds, but that doesn't mean there is a significant number of mortgage frauds in the market as a whole. And clearly prices have risen back to pretty much pre crash levels DESPITE removal of fraud and a lot of ability to actually obtain mortgages.

I mean come on, 21 cases in six months as against 18 previously. A DROP IN THE OCEAN. Don't get fooled by journalistic hyperbole. Not enough to shift the market by a fraction of a fraction of a percent. It's a laughable contention.

The average priced house is available to a couple with average incomes. And that is all you need to stoke demand. Like or not, that is what drives the market.

http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2010/07/certification-mortgages-self

Mmmmm, seems that a lot of people who took out mortgages between 2007 and 2010 were unable to prove their income. I wonder what the reason for that is ? I mean, surely you are going to bend over backwards to prove your income, if you mortgage repayment carries a premium for self cert ? Any self employed, or employed person should be able to provide evidence for their earning for the past year or two. If I were lending a substantial sum of money to someone, I`d want them to show me that they earn enough to pay me back, and I`d double check their evidence.

Yes, I know that mortgage lending was at quite low levels during this period, but it`s still a lot of people taking on large debts without proof of income.

DervProf

Sibley wrote: »

I always said house prices would never drop mainly because homeowners wouldn't allow it to happen.

Wrong, and wrong.

Prices did drop.

Gordon, Alistair and Merv attempted to prevent price drops, and to a degree, it worked.

Linton

julieq wrote: »

The word "parasite" was deliberately emotive. But at some time you have to understand that savings for safe returns is essentially a economically non-productive activity. You are getting returns for doing nothing, which is precisely what people complain about when talking about HPI.

It's necessary to think about this because there is a growing tendency to view savings as morally correct, and any form of risk taking - speculation, BTL, even gambling on horses - as morally suspect. In fact it's the investment and the underlying debt (investors lend money to productive concerns) which allows savings returns.

Not vice versa.

Your bank is investing in BTL via BTL owners to give you returns. If that stops, your returns are threatened. There are other sources of return, obviously.

It's like buying meat in a shrink wrapped pack in Tescos. The fact you didn't see the animal's intestines being ripped out before the meat was sanitised for purchase doesn't mean nothing was electrocuted, slaughtered and disembowelled. It just means you didn't do it yourself.

I have very little patience with the prudent and thrifty when they moralise about the sanctity of savings as an activity. Yes it's part of a balanced approach to finances, yes I do it too. But the people paying a large mortgage because they chose to take a risk on the house they wanted for whatever reason have just as much right as you or I to choose what to do with their income. The banks on the whole will see that the rate of default amongst such people is low.

OK you are making a point, but again I think you go one step too far.

Saving is no more reprehensible or worthy or non-productive than investing in anything else.

Just like in a unit trust, or even shares, you are relying on other people to make more productive use of your spare cash than you could (or maybe wish to) directly yourself. In the case of savings, the other people are the banks and building societies.

As in all investing it's a balance between risk and possible return. The right balance depends on ones circumstances and personality.

Where you are entitled to get angry is when people dont want to take the risks but then complain when they cant get the returns or take the returns and blame others when things go wrong.