Employer only paid me £400 for the month - what do I do?!?

Uncertain

soolin wrote: »

I read the OP to mean that there was a payment due to go in of X but a smaller amount of X actually went in. All perfectly legal as nothing was removed from employees account, he just didn't get the amount he was expecting:

I take your point but it all hinges on the words "due to go in" (whatever that means) and on the time scale.

Bengalknights tell us a BACS can be recalled within 48 hours. Does that mean 48 hours to the minute or to the end of the working day?

The reason I keep harping on about this point is that I've seen a similar situation regarding money paid for a purchase, goods being dispatched after checking with the bank then the money recalled.

I can't remember the exact details (and the rules may have changed) but in that case, after a struggle, the bank admitted they were at fault.

peachyprice

The employer will have actioned a BACS payment 3 days before payday to ensure it reached OP's account on pay day. Their bank will have been able to see that this payment was on it's way. The employer recalled the payment within the 48 hours limit before it reached OP's account, the money was never actually in the account, just on it's way, the bank have done no wrong.

Uncertain

peachyprice wrote: »

The employer will have actioned a BACS payment 3 days before payday to ensure it reached OP's account on pay day. Their bank will have been able to see that this payment was on it's way. The employer recalled the payment within the 48 hours limit before it reached OP's account, the money was never actually in the account, just on it's way, the bank have done no wrong.

So probably what we are saying is, subject to an exact check on the timeings, a day later and the employer wouldn't have been able to call it back?

timmay2606

Interesting to see all the replies....

I received my payslip in the post today and it explains the deductions. Just to clear a few things up:

Re: the banking timings: I am assuming that the BACS was entered on the Wednesday to clear in my account on the Friday. HSBC telephone banking can give you advice as to what credits are due into your account, and when I called on Thursday I was told of the impending credit for £1025. The company withdrew the BACS (which I assume they are entitiled to do so long as it hasn't cleared into my account) and then made a CHAPS payment for the £425. I don't have any beef with the bank and believe that they were acting according to their usual processes.

The pay dates from 1st July to 31st July, a period of 22 working days. I was off sick for two of these (happily accept this deduction) and also AWOL for the last two (again, happily accept this deduction). I would have been more than happy to accept the company withdrawing the BACS and replacing it with an amount adjusted for this.

Oddly, I have never in 14 years of working for different employers experienced the two weeks in hand/ two weeks arrears pay, and this certainly wasn't the case here.

The payslip makes a reference to £500 deducted for training. Just to clear this up, the training was not for any formal qualification, but general product knowledge. At no point was it made clear to anybody in the training sessions that an early departure from the company would result in having to pay for the training. I also never signed anything to this effect.

The training included a section on health and safety, and included in the handouts for this section was a weblink to the companies HR internal pages (including an employee handbook section). I am unable to verify whether or not the employee handbook section included a chapter on deductions for training, as the weblink doesn't work.

Finally, in respect to holidays, the company paid 21 days holiday per annum, I took one on June, and by my reckoning would be owed two days holiday.

So to summarise:

• The deduction was definitely for training.
• I had never seen or signed any paperwork agreeing to this deduction
• I was aware of a rumour to this effect
• Everything else on the payslip (bar the missing holiday pay) was above boardand as expected
• I had never seen, received or signed a contract.

So in your opinions folks:

Do I have a case for illegal deduction of pay? Obviously I will be writing to my former employer first thing on Monday morning explaining my position, and asking for the £500. Is this reasonable?

Yes I played a game of bluff, but are the company calling my bluff with an even bigger one of their own?

Many thanks for all the comments so far,

Timbo

Zazen999

timmay2606 wrote: »

Interesting to see all the replies....

I received my payslip in the post today and it explains the deductions. Just to clear a few things up:

Re: the banking timings: I am assuming that the BACS was entered on the Wednesday to clear in my account on the Friday. HSBC telephone banking can give you advice as to what credits are due into your account, and when I called on Thursday I was told of the impending credit for £1025. The company withdrew the BACS (which I assume they are entitiled to do so long as it hasn't cleared into my account) and then made a CHAPS payment for the £425. I don't have any beef with the bank and believe that they were acting according to their usual processes.

The pay dates from 1st July to 31st July, a period of 22 working days. I was off sick for two of these (happily accept this deduction) and also AWOL for the last two (again, happily accept this deduction). I would have been more than happy to accept the company withdrawing the BACS and replacing it with an amount adjusted for this.

Oddly, I have never in 14 years of working for different employers experienced the two weeks in hand/ two weeks arrears pay, and this certainly wasn't the case here.

The payslip makes a reference to £500 deducted for training. Just to clear this up, the training was not for any formal qualification, but general product knowledge. At no point was it made clear to anybody in the training sessions that an early departure from the company would result in having to pay for the training. I also never signed anything to this effect.

The training included a section on health and safety, and included in the handouts for this section was a weblink to the companies HR internal pages (including an employee handbook section). I am unable to verify whether or not the employee handbook section included a chapter on deductions for training, as the weblink doesn't work.

Finally, in respect to holidays, the company paid 21 days holiday per annum, I took one on June, and by my reckoning would be owed two days holiday.

So to summarise:

• The deduction was definitely for training.
• I had never seen or signed any paperwork agreeing to this deduction
• I was aware of a rumour to this effect
• Everything else on the payslip (bar the missing holiday pay) was above boardand as expected
• I had never seen, received or signed a contract.

So in your opinions folks:

Do I have a case for illegal deduction of pay? Obviously I will be writing to my former employer first thing on Monday morning explaining my position, and asking for the £500. Is this reasonable?

Yes I played a game of bluff, but are the company calling my bluff with an even bigger one of their own?

Many thanks for all the comments so far,

Timbo

If I was the employer and you did this to me; I'd be sending you an additional invoice to cover the cost of a temp to cover your notice period.

And the weblink would be working with a copy of the procedures with a line about claiming back training costs if you leave within x months....but then again that would have been in there from day 1 [if it were me].

stclair

Uncertain wrote: »

Have you checked carefully whether the bank has acted correctly in all this?

It is worth finding out under what circumstances a BACS payment can be recalled and / or amended.

It is possible the company has lied to the bank in order to recall the payment. The may have persuaded their bank that they made a mistake. This would be untrue as, at the time they made the payment, the amount was correct.

Obviously this has nothing to do with what the company does or doesn't owe you and any claims you may have on each other. The previous advice is good in that respect.

However, from a practical point of view if the bank has erred they will have to make good the £600 whether they can get it from the company or not.

BACS payments can be recalled or amended without any particular reason.

timmay2606

There would be no need for a temp to cover me. The company employs up to 30 salespeople every couple of weeks, and of the group I started with only 11 were left at the end of my tenure. They expect people to leave. It's a battery farm outbound sales environment.

Although I'm glad to hear that as an empoyer you would run such a tight ship. I would hope that you would operate a nicer working environment. One of the reasons I could no longer bear to work there was a motivational exercise by the sales manager that involved humiliating and embarrassing an elderly member of the sales staff by making them dance for everybody else to have a laugh at. It truly was an awful place to work.

I wish I had had the balls to stand up and say something at the time, and feel bad that I didn't.

Timbo

paulwf

Was the training internal? I can't see that the training would have cost £500 each if there were 30 of you, I'm presuming the £500 just accounts for your wages during the period of training?

Charging you for company specific training is also a bit cheeky, no idea what the law on that is though

soolin

paulwf wrote: »

Was the training internal? I can't see that the training would have cost £500 each if there were 30 of you, I'm presuming the £500 just accounts for your wages during the period of training?

Charging you for company specific training is also a bit cheeky, no idea what the law on that is though

I'm not sure about the law on training either. However it seems fairly standard on high turnover jobs. My sons have all had such jobs at uni where turnover is very high and they are constantly training and hiring people. However they were all warned that if they left within X weeks they repaid X towards training (it varied from place to place). basically it was explained that they got full or part wages for being trained but not working and that was what was being clawed back.

Most of the time it wasn't specifically in a written cntract (and most of the time they didn't get one as that wasn't issued until after a probation of a few months) but it was in either the initial employment letter or in a manual that the letter told them they were expected to read. They were also rewarned when they undertook training that the pay they received would be withdrawn if they didn't finish X amount of weeks or months.

SarEl

Notwithstanding the previous advice about the employer being able to counter-sue (as I told you at the time, it is rare, but it can and does happen), the law on the training deduction is very clear. Where a deduction for training is made, there must be a signed agreement in relation to the terms of the training and repayment of costs. No agreement, no deductios - it's an unlawful deduction.