Advice: Basic Salary Being deducted from???

WMKSales

Hi All

I currently work in a sales job were I have recently had a promotion:rotfl:. The promotion has a higher basic salary which is all good however i have recently found out that there is a fine in place which comes off of the basic salary if the business doesn't perform. I haven't been told about this verbally or in writing. I found out about this from another manager who told me and he also didn't know about this either when he took his position and only found out when he had a loss in one of his wage packets. The fine wasn't stated in my offer letter or in the company handbook?? Can they do this and just say that the fine has always been there and that i have to accept it?

Can they do this or is a basic salary protected??

Anyone who has any knowledge of help on the subject would be much appreciated.

Cheers

McKneff

Why dont you go higher up and check it out properly, from the horses mouth, so to speak.

Just because he says so, doesnt make it necessarily true.

And just my opinion, of course, i wouldnt think that legally they could do it if yu didnt know anything about it.

Googlewhacker

Edited due to being wrong, see below for why

SarEl

Googlewhacker wrote: »

How long have you worked there and how long has this practise been happening?

As long as it does not take you under NMW and you have been there more than a couple of months then the company could say this is custom and practise and is an unwritten rule of contract.

I deduction from wage cannot be an unwritten rule of contract. It must either fall within one of the lawful deductions categories (which this does not) or it must be a written rule of the contract. That's the law.

WMKSales

cheers guys

@ McNeff i have spoken to my boss and he just said "yeah thats right" as if it was common knowledge so leaves me stuck from that point of veiw, was just hoping it was illegal as it is possibly a big effect on the wages

@ SarEl depending on circumstances of fine it could take me under NMW and i have been with them 3 years however this job role only a month.I guess its CAB time if they don't wanna do anything for me

Cheers again Guys

SarEl

WMKSales wrote: »

cheers guys

@ McNeff i have spoken to my boss and he just said "yeah thats right" as if it was common knowledge so leaves me stuck from that point of veiw, was just hoping it was illegal as it is possibly a big effect on the wages

@ SarEl depending on circumstances of fine it could take me under NMW and i have been with them 3 years however this job role only a month.I guess its CAB time if they don't wanna do anything for me

Cheers again Guys

It certainly is illegal and the NMW has nothing to do with it. It is just illegal. You will find a basic legal statement here http://www.emplaw.co.uk/content/index?startpage=data/098001.htm

I am generally wary of postings links because "potted law" and "the law" are often two different things - but I have checked this one over and it is accurate enough for your purposes.

However, you must complain to a tribunal within 3 months of the deduction, or you will be out of time. And obviously, I cannot tell you that your employer will be pleased with you because he won't be - and that has consequences you may not (and probably won't) like I am afraid that only you can decide whether a job in the hand is worth the fight.

Savvy_Sue

SarEl wrote: »

It certainly is illegal and the NMW has nothing to do with it. It is just illegal. You will find a basic legal statement here http://www.emplaw.co.uk/content/index?startpage=data/098001.htm

I am generally wary of postings links because "potted law" and "the law" are often two different things - but I have checked this one over and it is accurate enough for your purposes.

However, you must complain to a tribunal within 3 months of the deduction, or you will be out of time. And obviously, I cannot tell you that your employer will be pleased with you because he won't be - and that has consequences you may not (and probably won't) like I am afraid that only you can decide whether a job in the hand is worth the fight.

I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with SarEl, so I'll just ask if it wouldn't be worth getting a group letter written, pointing out to the employer what the law says, rather than all going along with what custom and practice has been.

Have you got any feel for how often this happens?

SarEl

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with SarEl, so I'll just ask if it wouldn't be worth getting a group letter written, pointing out to the employer what the law says, rather than all going along with what custom and practice has been.

Have you got any feel for how often this happens?

Good point - although if there is no union (and I am assuming there isn't) then I am afraid that my experience is that most people don't want to put their head over the parapet. After all, the other people here have been accepting this as ok - you'd have thought someone would have questioned it if they didn't.

But this one has been exercising the grey cells - I am not even sure that in law an employer can fine an employee for the business not performing well. I have never come across this before, and I have searched the law / legal precedents, and can't find a thing like it. The best I can do is extrapolate from legal principle - and on that basis I keep coming up with "you cannot fine an individual employee for a collective failure of business because the circumstances of business success are not in their control". Logically, the "correct" way to do this is performance related bonus - if certain targets are met you get more money - and that is what other employers do. On that basis I think that my advice would be - join a union very fast! Most unions will not allow you to get representation for 3 - 6 months. But you have an advantage - unlawful deduction claims date (within reason) from the date of the last unlawful deduction in a series, not the first. So get in a union, serve your time - then you will qualify for representation and legal advice - possibly even legal representation if there is a case.

DVardysShadow

SarEl wrote: »

On that basis I think that my advice would be - join a union very fast! Most unions will not allow you to get representation for 3 - 6 months. But you have an advantage - unlawful deduction claims date (within reason) from the date of the last unlawful deduction in a series, not the first. So get in a union, serve your time - then you will qualify for representation and legal advice - possibly even legal representation if there is a case.

Something has just clicked for me here. If the company is non union, you don't get representation - at least not in terms of negotiating workplace terms and conditions.

But if it comes to a situation where you have a right to be accompanied, then in the last week or 2 I have learned here that you can be accompanied by an accredited union rep.

So when you have a really odd practice like fines for the company not doing well enough, I think it may really make sense to join a union.

Savvy_Sue

SarEl wrote: »

Good point - although if there is no union (and I am assuming there isn't) then I am afraid that my experience is that most people don't want to put their head over the parapet.

Yup, which was why I was suggesting several of them putting their heads over together: after all, they all stand to benefit, and it's one thing to get rid of one troublemaker, but possibly problematic to get rid of several all at once!

SarEl wrote: »

After all, the other people here have been accepting this as ok - you'd have thought someone would have questioned it if they didn't.

People's ignorance of basic employment law never fails to astonish me. The boss says something, and no-one says "Is that legal?" May never have occurred to the boss that it isn't legal, of course, employers can be pretty ignorant too ...

SarEl wrote: »

On that basis I think that my advice would be - join a union very fast! Most unions will not allow you to get representation for 3 - 6 months. But you have an advantage - unlawful deduction claims date (within reason) from the date of the last unlawful deduction in a series, not the first. So get in a union, serve your time - then you will qualify for representation and legal advice - possibly even legal representation if there is a case.

And from my far less informed position, I'd agree!

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Something has just clicked for me here. If the company is non union, you don't get representation - at least not in terms of negotiating workplace terms and conditions.

But if it comes to a situation where you have a right to be accompanied, then in the last week or 2 I have learned here that you can be accompanied by an accredited union rep.

So when you have a really odd practice like fines for the company not doing well enough, I think it may really make sense to join a union.

For that reason, if for no other ...

princeofpounds

It's illegal deduction of wages, very clear cut. Wages can only be deducted under certain special circumstances, which in brief are:

- statute: i.e. the law demands it (attachment of earnings orders or tax for example).
- contractual terms (and even then there are rules)
- agreed in writing by employee.

IIRC there is also a small exemption for money handling staff which allows shopkeepers to deduct small mistakes in the float between shifts.

If none of these applies you can go to a tribunal, get the practice stopped, get our money back. Of course it takes effort and has future consequences. Often the threat of it is enough.