Tories are certainly getting stuck into our benefits system...

neverdespairgirl

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Oh for goodness sake ! I'm not going to start spouting out chapter and verse on the many factors, conflicts and social changes that took place and led up to the creation of the welfare state in the UK ( I recommend Andrew Marr's 'The Making of Modern Britain' as a very informative read though )...

What I was saying was the brave people who fought in two world wars.. would probably be absolutely horrified at the notion that someone such as yourself, would be actively advocating starving those who are already living at the lowest levels of existance, and their children... as you were earlier on in the thread. It's bordering on right-wing extremism.. and was the very thing they were fighting against happening in this country.

I hope that makes my point clear enough for you ?

Moving on...

The unclear part was your talking about people being shot for cowardice and shell shock, etc. Which no longer applies to living people, bar possibly one or two exceptions

Harry_Powell

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

The unclear part was your talking about people being shot for cowardice and shell shock, etc. Which no longer applies to living people, bar possibly one or two exceptions

One would have thought that those shot for cowardice were, for the most part, no longer living...

Shakethedisease

The unclear part was your talking about people being shot for cowardice and shell shock, etc. Which no longer applies to living people, bar possibly one or two exceptions

I wasn't using that as a debating point. Just pointing out that those that had ears still ringing from Afghanistan etc.. are treated a lot better nowadays compared to predeccesors in the two world wars. We now know there are genuine pyschological problems there going on. That was all.

A man sent home with 2 legs amputated after WWI was treated dreadfully.. a fair proportion ended up begging the the streets and treated as the 'scum' and 'leeches' mbga9pgf is so fond of categorising people as ... and after WWII it wasn't that much better. Those suffering from 'shell-shock' and the like were simply confined into the local 'loony bin'.. ( no longer encomically viable in other words).. What's his face wanted those today with disablilties to 'get up and work' or 'starve'.. cos he was confident HE would be able to work 'no matter what '. He thinks those on benefits will be 'cured' by having benefits stopped altogether. And is also ok with children starving to death because their parents are 'failures'. Read the first few pages of the thread.

He neglects to say who, what and under what circumstances this should be so. Spouting aimless bile in other words.. yet tries to put himself up on a pedestal for being a part of the armed forces and a halo round his head then waxes lyrical over two posts about his 'pension plan' ??? When two posts before he was ok about a blanket 'starve or work' policy in the UK ?

Like that's what soldier's fought in wars for ? I'm not quite sure where starving babies and making lots of families homeless quite fit's in there. He seems quite sure about it though.

One would have thought that those shot for cowardice were, for the most part, no longer living...

Their wives and kids were though... ( at the time )..

Read Lemonjelly's post/link.. and lets get back on topic if the thread is to continue. I'm fed up justifying one little comment I made amongst many on this thread.. when it really isn't relevant to the overall discussion. The reponses to my comment are only a 'scoring points/picking holes' thing and I'm not really interested in going any further with it on that basis. I've explained more than fully what I meant by it ( ie mbga9pgf's posts are bordering on the extreme and that those fighting in both WW's would be horrified by them and what they would mean for the most vunerable UK citizens)..

Lemonjelly's post/link was far, far more of an 'eye-opener', and far more important and worth discussing imho than anything I have to say. It's a shame not many have bothered really.. and are more intent on ignoring the original point of the thread in order to get a few more 'thanks' to their names instead.

chewmylegoff

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Their wives and kids were though... ( at the time )..

there were about 300 executions of british soliders in WW1 in total, some of which were people driven into mental incapacity by the horror of war and some of which were not. compared to over 1,000,000 deaths amongst british and dominion soldiers it seems rather pointless to try to dredge this up as a backup to whatever argument it is that you're trying to make.

further, i get bored of the argument that people fought in two world wars because they wanted to stop right wing extremism. i think you will find that most people fought in both wars (and particularly in WW2 where the enemy actually was a right wing extremist state) because they were conscripted or because peer pressure demanded their enlistment.

Shakethedisease

further, i get bored of the argument that people fought in two world wars because they wanted to stop right wing extremism. i think you will find that most people fought in both wars (and particularly in WW2 where the enemy actually was a right wing extremist state) because they were conscripted or because peer pressure demanded their enlistment.

Ah ok ? So they were ok with Nazi-ism then. Just got conscripted and fought and died because a wee form came through the door saying they were off to the front line. Right-oh..

Glad you cleared that up for us all. *yawns*

Tell it to the soldiers fighting now and see what you get telling them they're 'only there' because of 'peer pressure' ?

chewmylegoff

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Ah ok ? So they were ok with Nazi-ism then. Just got conscripted and fought and died because a wee form came through the door saying they were off to the front line. Right-oh..

Glad you cleared that up for us all.

ok, so conscription was necessary in WW2 why?

Shakethedisease

Cos they wanted to win the war against the Nazi's ?

chewmylegoff

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Cos they wanted to win the war against the Nazi's ?

but surely everyone wanted to fight the nazis so no conscription necessary. not agreeing with the nazi ideology is not the same as wanting to be on the front line. further, defending your own country from attack isn't quite the same as being virulently opposed to right wing ideology.

and as for peer pressure, i don't see what it's got to do with the modern era, but if you think it wasn't a major contributor to people volunteering in WW1 and to a lesser extent WW2 then you've not got a clue.

Shakethedisease

Read Lemonjelly's post/link.. and lets get back on topic if the thread is to continue. I'm fed up justifying one little comment I made amongst many on this thread.. when it really isn't relevant to the overall discussion. The reponses to my comment are only a 'scoring points/picking holes' thing and I'm not really interested in going any further with it on that basis. I've explained more than fully what I meant by it ( ie mbga9pgf's posts are bordering on the extreme and that those fighting in both WW's would be horrified by them and what they would mean for the most vunerable UK citizens)..

Please read the above again. I agree with you. This has nothing to do with the 'modern era'. It hasn't been me labouring the point.. it's been you and others here determined to keep harping on and on about it ( see your previous 2 posts for example )...

not agreeing with the nazi ideology is not the same as wanting to be on the front line.

However, dying for the UK's anti-nazi ideology is a VASTLY different thing. You want to tell all those who lost in those wars that they were only there and died because they were conscripted in. Feel free. I'm not going to stop you.

chewmylegoff

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Please read the above again. I agree with you. This has nothing to do with the 'modern era'. It hasn't been me labouring the point.. it's been you and others here determined to keep harping on and on about it ( see your previous 2 posts for example )...

you're the one who raised this issue, don't make throwaway comments about important things to try to back up your arguments if you don't like being challenged.