Maybe wrong place but...advice for a friend needed RE: work appeal

alasia

Hi everyone.

A friend of mine was suspended from work at the start of the month from his job as a bus driver.
The reason was that while he was at work he "forgot" (he says) to give 2 people their tickets. Took the money but put it in the cashbox as he was supposed to, just didnt issue the tickets or put any passes through for these 2 girls. The amount of the tickets was around £6.
As it happens, a spy was on the bus at the time and they accompanied him back to the yard, and he was suspended straight away without even being able to finish his shift.

Now, this is what he tells me; he may be fabricating some of it,but Ive spoken to another colleague of his who confirms that his side of things is actually what happened. Seems a bit harsh to me, but hey...

Anyway - ticket irregularities are classed as grossmisconducrt so according to the company are a sackable offence. He had a meeting with his boss after being suspended for a week, after which they fired him but said he was allowed 2 appeals.
Hes been for one appeal and no luck, although he never told me what was said.


He has had a union rep with him on every meeting, and I dont really get why he hasnt had another chance, as he has been working for the company for over 10 years with no previous marks on his record, and has always been the first to help them out with shifts, etc.

So...my question is - he has his final appeal on Monday.
Does anyone have any experience of this kind of thing, or tips on what he could say/do or how to act at the meeting, to try and get his job back?

He told me that another colleague of his was caught for the same thing as him a while back, but wasnt sacked straight away; he was given another chance and only dismissed after he had done it again! Although I only have my friends word on that...

So, yeah - any advice is appreciated, thanks

David_Brent

Seems very harsh to sack him for that..I mean if you work on the till in a shop and drill in the wrong amount and charge someone the wrong amount by mistake then its just a human error - you would never get sacked as these things happen.

Though if your friend was caught with the money charged for the tickets in his pocket or on his person then he could be suspected of theft. But you say the moeny was in the cash box so he obviously had no intention of stealing this money.

I can understand someone forgeting to give the the person buying the ticket their ticket. But...Charging someone for a ticket then not putting this through the machine does deem a bit suspicious....but then he may have been rushed a large amount of people waiting to get on the bus etc and just threw the money in the cash box then dealt with the next customer in a muddle.

Can the bus company actually 'prove' that your friend intended to pocket this money? I would personally consult with a solicitor about this...

SarEl

Bearing in mind that, as you are obviously aware, you have no idea how much of this is true or his version of the truth...

His length of service doesn't matter one jot. Everybody has a "first time", and if he has done something which is a dismissable offence, then that is what it is. Nor does it matter whether they can prove he intended to pocket the money - the term used here appears to be "ticket irregularities" which doesn't mean theft - it means any irregularity concerning tickets. And it clearly states (you say) that this is classed as gross misconduct. End of story - he was told that this was gross misconduct and may therefore result in his dismissal and he "forgot" that issuing tickets was his job... In law, on the face of what you have said, there isn't a leg to stand on.

In relation to what happened (allegedly) with someone else, then this also isn't relevant. Every case is unique. No employer has to dismiss even in cases of gross misconduct, and may take into account different explanations and circumstances. Someone else not being sacked may therefore be as a result of different circumstances. Equally, his dismissal first time may be because the employer has found that letting people off doesn't work, and they have got harder about it. All that matters is whether this was a proportional outcome - was sacking within the range of outcomes that could be considered. Clearly it was because company policy says that this may be a dismissable offence - so fair warning was given.

If he looses his appeal, assuming that the process has been followed correctly for dismissal, then I would not be hopeful of any chance at a tribunal (although his union would advise on this anyway).

alasia

Thanks, well he said something to me aboput the bus had been fairly quiet (only about 6 customers as he was on an evening shift), and that he was exhausted which is why he made the mistake.
His story is that he had 3 of his customers say he shouldnt have been working as he looked really tired, and he saidghe was going to use those as his witnesses at his last appeal,but whether he did or not I dont know.

There may be more to it, Im not sure - as I dont see why they would have suspended him straight away without even letting him finish his shift (which ended in 2 hours).

So theres nothing he can do or say at this final appeal to put his point across as best as possible, or give him a chance of getting his job back?
Hes not great with words so asked me for advice...and Im no good with that sort of thing either!

dickydonkin

In relation to what happened (allegedly) with someone else, then this also isn't relevant. Every case is unique.

I believe it is relevant.

If a policy exists, in the interest of fairness, the company should be consistent and abide by its own policies and procedures and treat like for like.

I am not suggesting two wrongs make a right, but by treating everyone the same, this will result in a fair hearing.

Every case is unique.

But alleged theft is alleged theft!

dmg24

alasia wrote: »

Thanks, well he said something to me aboput the bus had been fairly quiet (only about 6 customers as he was on an evening shift), and that he was exhausted which is why he made the mistake.
His story is that he had 3 of his customers say he shouldnt have been working as he looked really tired, and he saidghe was going to use those as his witnesses at his last appeal,but whether he did or not I dont know.

I would not go down this route. If he claims to have been exhausted he will need to explain why. He will also need to explain why he did not advise his employer of the 'exhaustion' at the start of his shift. Exhaustion and driving a large vehicle do not go together, so he has also broken health and safety requirements.

SarEl

dpassmore wrote: »

I believe it is relevant.

If a policy exists, in the interest of fairness, the company should be consistent and abide by its own policies and procedures and treat like for like.

I am not suggesting two wrongs make a right, but by treating everyone the same, this will result in a fair hearing.



But alleged theft is alleged theft!

In principle I agree with you. But the company do not have to be fair. And the law certainly isn't. At least not in terms of the way that ordinary people might interpret the word. The policy will no doubt state something along the lines of this offence is gross misconduct "may lead to dismissal" - as I have said before, there is absolutely no reason why gross misconduct must lead to dismissal although it often does. An employer is obliged to consider mitigation in all circumstances (or at least to look like they have). On occasions, the mitigation may convince an employer to be more lenient. You therefore cannot compare cases because you do not know the details of other cases, and cannot obtain them, to determine that cases are exactly the same. The only circumstances where an employer must use the same "penalty" is where employees are charged with exactly the same charge arising from the same event. So if there is a theft and three employees are involved or suspected of involvement, to be fair in law, all must be dismissed or not.

alasia

So...his company policy is that all employees thatare dismissed have the right to two appeals - why is this?

I udnerstand one appeal so the former employee can plead their case etc., but why a second appeal?

As far as I can tell from looking through the company handbook (online), the only sackable offences are gross misconduct (including ticket irregularities and outright theft) and driving under the influence/similar behaviour.
So why would the company have a policy of 2 appeals if the only sackable offences are these really serious ones?

Lol I realise that probably doesnt make much sense...Im typing with 2 toddlers running riot around me!

So is there nothing he can do or say at this appeal then?

SarEl

alasia wrote: »

So...his company policy is that all employees thatare dismissed have the right to two appeals - why is this?

I udnerstand one appeal so the former employee can plead their case etc., but why a second appeal?

As far as I can tell from looking through the company handbook (online), the only sackable offences are gross misconduct (including ticket irregularities and outright theft) and driving under the influence/similar behaviour.
So why would the company have a policy of 2 appeals if the only sackable offences are these really serious ones?

Lol I realise that probably doesnt make much sense...Im typing with 2 toddlers running riot around me!

So is there nothing he can do or say at this appeal then?

Well they have two appeals because that is their policy. Nothing to stop them doing so, and well beyoned legal requirements.

I can't read the handbook, but the phrasing usually says "examples of such conduct are" or something like that. It is exceedingly rare for a company to list the only things that may consititute gross misconduct or be dismissable offences.

I wouldn't suggest that there isn't anything he can say or do - but I don't know why he didn't issue the tickets so it's hard to suggest what his defence is. Although I agree that driving whilst exhausted is possibly not a great defence, because if he wasn't capable of issuing tickets due to exhaustion, he probably shouldn't have been driving. An apology? A promise never to do it again? Reference to his sterling previous employment reord?

dickydonkin

The OP quoted:

He told me that another colleague of his was caught for the same thing as him a while back, but wasnt sacked straight away; he was given another chance and only dismissed after he had done it again!

Sorry SarEl if I have misunderstood but you also quoted;

The only circumstances where an employer must use the same "penalty" is where employees are charged with exactly the same charge arising from the same event. So if there is a theft and three employees are involved or suspected of involvement, to be fair in law, all must be dismissed or not.

And that was the point I think I made although I do concede that the OP's friend's situation was not the SAME event but certainly based on the posting seems to be the SAME alleged offence (gross misconduct).

My point was that where such an allegation of gross misconduct exists (whatever the cause of the alleged breach), every 'gross misconduct' charge should be treated alike. I would also suggest that if a company does not adhere to its OWN disciplinary procedure, then there is the possibility of redress at tribunal.

It is possible (or likely) that the true story has not been told (no fault of the OP) and there may be more to this than what has actually been told to the OP.