25% cut in public sector - the biggest headline?

vivatifosi

marklv wrote: »

I agree - nursing is a vocation, not a profession. Before long you'll need a degree to grill burgers at MacDonald.

Are you mad? How can you compare nursing to working at McDonalds? Since when has dispensing the wrong happy meal had the ability to kill someone the way giving someone the wrong drugs or administering them in the wrong way could?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8465351.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1285176.stm
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=4&art_id=98101&sid=28206641&con_type=1&d_str=20100512&fc=2

And if on the rare occasion someone did get anaphylaxis from eating the wrong happy meal, wouldn't it be useful to have a nurse around:
http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/1638277.bhealth_crisisb_threatened_unit_saves_our_paul/

A._Badger

vivatifosi wrote: »

Are you mad? How can you compare nursing to working at McDonalds? Since when has dispensing the wrong happy meal had the ability to kill someone the way giving someone the wrong drugs or administering them in the wrong way could?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8465351.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1285176.stm
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=4&art_id=98101&sid=28206641&con_type=1&d_str=20100512&fc=2

And if on the rare occasion someone did get anaphylaxis from eating the wrong happy meal, wouldn't it be useful to have a nurse around:
http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/1638277.bhealth_crisisb_threatened_unit_saves_our_paul/

I wouldn't normally leap to marklv's defence, but that's most assuredly not the difference between a vocation and a profession. It has nothing to do with levels of skill.

In fact, the ternm vocation suggests a rather better motivation, than does a profession.

On the wider point, I have seen no evidence that sugests non-degree educated nursing staff in the past were any less competent than today's graduates.

vivatifosi

A._Badger wrote: »

I wouldn't normally leap to marklv's defence, but that's most assuredly not the difference between a vocation and a profession. It has nothing to do with levels of skill.

In fact, the ternm vocation suggests a rather better motivation, than does a profession.

On the wider point, I have seen no evidence that sugests non-degree educated nursing staff in the past were any less competent than today's graduates.

It wasn't the vocation argument I was complaining about, it was the comparison with unskilled workers at McDonalds. The inference was "anyone could do it", whereas nursing is actually highly skilled and I certainly don't have an issue with people taking degrees in the subject if it helps them develop a body of knowledge that saves lives, though I take your point that competent nurses have always been around.

A._Badger

vivatifosi wrote: »

It wasn't the vocation argument I was complaining about, it was the comparison with unskilled workers at McDonalds. The inference was "anyone could do it", whereas nursing is actually highly skilled and I certainly don't have an issue with people taking degrees in the subject if it helps them develop a body of knowledge that saves lives.

In that case, I agree with you.

I don't, however, feel that a mandatory degree is a good idea in nursing - a view I have heard quite often from experienced nurses. In fact, I tend to the view that the UK has gone rather degree mad, mistakenly believing that a degree automatically makes someone a more productive employee.

treliac

A._Badger wrote: »

I tend to the view that the UK has gone rather degree mad, mistakenly believing that a degree automatically makes someone a more productive employee.

Whereas, in fact, it makes most of them £25k in debt and often no more employable.

butterfly72

A._Badger wrote: »

On the wider point, I have seen no evidence that sugests non-degree educated nursing staff in the past were any less competent than today's graduates.

I'd argue that the nurse today is more autonomous. I'm certainly out there working independently making key decision about what I do for my patients. Decision backed up by research findings - in todays legal culture (and the NMC breathing down your neck) you really need to proctect yourself and justify your actions AND omissions!

Theres greater technology out there now and a growing body of research and evidence and having the ability to understand the research and make a choice is really important... in the more advanced practice at least. Nurses are performing minor ops, running clinics, prescribing drugs, diagnosing. Not all nurses are just providing essential personal care in hospitals or nursing homes. Do they need a degree to wash someone? No, probably not. Hence why soon there will be more and more health care assistants on the shop floor and less qualified nurses.

tomterm8

butterfly72 wrote: »

I'm certainly out there working independently making key decision about what I do for my patients. Decision backed up by research findings

While I'm not a worker in the NHS, I think half the problem is that the boundary between nurses and doctors has been diminished to the point a senior nurse can be called to make very important medical decisions that are sometimes life and death matters.

Really, I think the traditional role of nurse is taken up by other professions in the hospital... such as cleaners, health care assistants etc.

Many senior nurses are now more responsible for medical outcomes than junior doctors... thinking of them as solely filling the old role of carers is wrong.

mbga9pgf

vivatifosi wrote: »

Are you mad? How can you compare nursing to working at McDonalds? Since when has dispensing the wrong happy meal had the ability to kill someone the way giving someone the wrong drugs or administering them in the wrong way could?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8465351.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1285176.stm
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=4&art_id=98101&sid=28206641&con_type=1&d_str=20100512&fc=2

And if on the rare occasion someone did get anaphylaxis from eating the wrong happy meal, wouldn't it be useful to have a nurse around:
http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/1638277.bhealth_crisisb_threatened_unit_saves_our_paul/

Its a shame most nurses and Doctors cant be @rsed to turn up to medical practitioner human factors training then.

Most Surgeons I encounter have a shocking attitude to theatre resource management, similar to where the aviation industry was back in the 60s.

The Canadians introduced Checklists into theatre 10 years ago, as well as pre-op briefings. Cut deaths by 40%.

We still cant cut someone open and stitch them back up again without leaving scissors in them.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40064000/jpg/_40064245_scissors_xray203.jpg

either they left a pair of scissors underneath this woman on the X-Ray table, or something is seriously up...


This is what we get despite throwing cash hand over fist at the NHS for 10 years. THe NHS as a whole needs to learn how to be efficient, senior nurses and consultant surgeons need to get with the programme and change their working practices.

Simple question, one I cant get answered. Why are medical swabs white and not coloured blue, in order to prevent them being left in patients during ops? Why are the number of swabs not counted out by the theatre nurse and counted back in as the surgeon removes them? Simple things like this dont cost a penny yet would save lives.