Real life MMD: Is the council tax bill mine?

ianrossiter

check out the 'nocounciltax' website, you may all find it of some benefit.......................

Butti

Council tax was a hybrid based in part on property (like the old rates system) and part on people (like the poll tax). Its underlying assumption is two people earning and paying it. That is why when one is a student you get a discount on the bill.

In this case there are two people earning and one struggling. It seems really clear from a technical view and also on the basis of the tax that two people should be paying it. If the point were to be really pressed all bills could be split 3 ways but that seems a bit petty if the other 2 can afford it.

B

n3phi1im

Several people have said 'I am a student and I don't have to pay' but this is misleading (and probably irrelevant to this discussion but hey).

If all of the occupants are fulltime students, then the property receives a 100% discount. Council tax is tax on a property, not on a person (don't forget, you even have to pay CT on empty properties). Likewise, if all the occupants are on means tested benefits, the property gets a 100% discount. Although the rules may vary from one council to the next.

The occupants of a property are already 'joint and severally liable' which means the council can pursue any of them for the full amount. (I am not sure how this would work if the house was not subdivided eg bedsits etc but all the occupants have separate contracts).

The crux here is that the CT hasn't increased, so it is unfair for the brothers to ask her to pay it considering her circumstances. However, the fact is that she is an adult living in a house that is eligible to pay full CT so in the eyes of the council she would be 'jointly and severally liable' for the amount just as much as her brothers would be.

Sucks.

DrScotsman

serious_saver wrote: »

The OP doesn't actually say if they are paying rent or not. If we assume that they are not then 1/3 of the council tax bill is not really a lot to ask.

I don't disagree, my point is I wouldn't call it council tax, I would call it rent. I don't think she should be paying council tax but that doesn't mean that an amount equal to the council tax would be too much as rent. If the brothers want to make it equal to 1/3 of the council tax then so be it.

As I mentioned in a previous post they are being inconvenienced by the loss of a room. You say 'spare room' as though there can be NO inconveniece here. My spare room is used as a guest room/ study. Without it I wouldn't be able to have visitors to stay and would feel very inconvenienced.

Again I don't disagree. I apologise as in hindsight I guess "spare" was a poor choice of word - I didn't mean a theoretical empty never used room. (I am assuming on a balance of probabilities that it isn't TOO inconvenient for the brothers, but if it is then I completely agree that should be taken into account)

Jackie

Although the brothers are working they may not have as much disposable income as the OP if they are on low incomes or have child support responsibilities or debt.

It would be sensible for the family members to agree the length of time the OP is expected to stay and formally agree the share of household expenses to be paid in the meantime and the share of chores. It may be acceptable to commute some of the household expenses into chores at a notional hourly rate.

happyinflorida

NO, NO, NO!!!! Fill in your council tax benefit form and advise the date you moved in, your brother's council tax will be adjusted to account for you ie a third will be deducted for your share as you are entitled to council tax benefit.

You may also be entitled to help with housing benefit - the same form as long as neither of your brother's owns the house you are all living in, if they do, you cannot claim. If they are renting from a landlord, then you can also apply to have your rent paid by housing benefit, through the council on the same form.

Nick_C

n3phi1im wrote: »

The occupants of a property are already 'joint and severally liable' which means the council can pursue any of them for the full amount. However, the fact is that she is an adult living in a house that is eligible to pay full CT so in the eyes of the council she would be 'jointly and severally liable' for the amount just as much as her brothers would be.

That is only true where all the occupiers have the same status. There is a hierarchy of liability. If the the first two occupiers are joint tenants and the third person is staying with them as a licensee or guest, the third person is not liable for CT. To quote from http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/tax/council_tax.htm :-

"Usually one person, called the liable person, is liable to pay council tax.

Nobody under the age of 18 can be a liable person.

Couples living together will both be liable, even if there is only one name on the bill. This applies whether the couple is married, cohabiting or in a civil partnership." [This also applies to Gay couples who have not registered a Civil Partnership! Nick_C]

"Usually, the person living in a property will be the liable person, but sometimes it will be the owner of the property who will be liable to pay.

The owner will be liable if:

• the property is in multiple occupation, for example, a house shared by a number of different households who all pay rent separately; or
• the people who live in the property are all under the age of 18; or
• the property is accommodation for asylum seekers; or
• the people who are staying in the property are there temporarily and have their main homes somewhere else; or
• the property is a care home, hospital, hostel or women's refuge.

If only one person lives in a property they will be the liable person.

If more than one person lives there, a system called the hierarchy of liability is used to work out who is the liable person. The person at the top, or nearest to the top, of the hierarchy is the liable person. Two people at the same point of the hierarchy will both be liable.

The hierarchy of liability is:

1. a resident owner-occupier who owns either the leasehold or freehold of all or part of the property
2. a resident tenant
3. a resident who lives in the property and who is a licensee. This means that they are not a tenant, but have permission to stay there
4. any resident living in the property, for example, a squatter
5. an owner of the property where no one is resident.

"

Arandorastar

No! No! No! No! No!
Just because a 3rd person moves in does make them
a) liable for Council Tax at all
and, therefore
b) entitled to Council Tax Benefit.
As stated previously the liability for Council Tax is defined in law with a strict hierarchy of who is responsible. On the face of this case (and without all the assumptions people are making) the OP has no liability in law whatsoever.
The question is a moral and financial one.
Should she contribute to a share of the Council Tax that (unless they have joint and several responsibility) one of her brothers is liable for and can she afford to do so?
The answer depends on the family values of this household, not yours or mine. Having accepted our daughter back into our household after her marriage failed, and she being on benefits, the question of her contributing to our Council Tax (and we are both pensioners) never crossed our minds. But that's us!

Nick_C

happyinflorida wrote: »

NO, NO, NO!!!! Fill in your council tax benefit form and advise the date you moved in, your brother's council tax will be adjusted to account for you ie a third will be deducted for your share as you are entitled to council tax benefit.

You may also be entitled to help with housing benefit - the same form as long as neither of your brother's owns the house you are all living in, if they do, you cannot claim. If they are renting from a landlord, then you can also apply to have your rent paid by housing benefit, through the council on the same form.

You can only claim Council Tax Benefit if you are liable for Council Tax.

You can only claim Housing Benefit if you are liable to pay rent or charges to occupy a dwelling as your home (or you are paying charges as if you were liable and the Council agrees that is reasonable - for example, an adult child who remains in a property after their parent (who was the tenant) has died). You are not entitled to Housing Benefit if you are living with a landlord who is a close relative, or if your tenancy has been created to take advantage of the Housing Benefit Scheme.

Arandorastar

Exactly! :T