Chip 'n' Pin - A Quick Guide Discussion Area

patmit

yes the chip and pin code is a great idea,but not totally new as I have a spanish code card which is similar in order to give qualified evidence that you are the correct person seeking information when using the phonebank, instead of mothers maiden name and memorable information thhere are coded numbers and letters and they ask you what line D5 is for inst . A bit like battleships!
great site I have just joined !!
Pat

lisssa

This was one listeners comment: (I included it for the Chip & PIN content)
A couple of months ago I filled up my car at a garage outside Swansea only to have my cheque refused. The manageress said the banks were returning cheques even when guaranteed with the cheque guarantee card.

Is this a ploy by the banks to discontinue the use of cheques?

Lets be honest here, Banks do want to discourage the use of Cheques however I really dont believe that the above scanario is an example of how they are trying to 'encourage' this.

Just because a retailer accepts a cheque with a cheque guarantee card this does not guarentee them payment.

In the same way retailers have to undertake checks with Credit / Debit Cards they also have procedures to undertake when accepting cheques as a means of payment. If these checks are not undertaken then the bank has the right to 'charge back' the payment.

The checks include - signature on card matches that on cheque ( how many times does that happen)
Valid Expiry Date / start date.
Amount of transaction is within Chq Card Limit
The Card is a valid cheque guarentee card for the cheque being presented

There may be more checks but thats all i can remember ::)

A bank would have to have sufficent grounds to reject the acceptance of a cheque, they can not just refuse it because they want to discourage use. Similar checks also apply to the acceptance of credit / debits cards.

And yes have to admit I do work for a credit card Company , although would rather not say which one ::) but was heavily involved in the implementation of VISA 3D Secure & MasterCard Secure Code, so if anyone has any questions will gladly answer them if I can.

James

LIsssa,

You asked, so here goes.

1. Is it compulsory or a legal requirement to have a PIN with a Chipped Card? Yes or No will do.

If No:

2. Why is that card industry not being honest and telling people that their is an option - Chip & Signature?

If Yes;

3. Can you tell us about alternatives (if any) and the minimum requirement to obtain a Chip & Signature Card?

4. The card industry is confusing retailers and cardholders alike. After Dec 2004, will retailers openly advertise that the wont accept cards whose logos they display that are not verified by a PIN?

5. In theory would you say it's possible to clone (because of magstrip retention) a chipped credit card and use the cloned card with a valid PIN in a non-compliant Chip & PIN ATM?

It would be nice to hear the reply of someone from within.

James

lisssa

Hi James, quite happy to answer your questions where I can, however would just like to point out that this is my 'view' / interrpretation of what i know! ::) Lisssa

You asked, so here goes.

1. Is it compulsory or a legal requirement to have a PIN with a Chipped Card? Yes or No will do.
NO

If No:
2. Why is that card industry not being honest and telling people that their is an option - Chip & Signature?

I dont beleive that the Card Industry is trying to be dishonest, Chip and signature has been around for a few years now and is being utilised. However when the Chip is being checked, all that is being authenticated is the Card and not the Cardholder. Im aware that the Chip technology is by no means being fully utilised, and im sure as technologies such as biometrics are further developed the Chip could be further utilised to introduce these types of authentication methods. As to when that will be - no idea, that idea has been kicking around for a long long time ! The introduction of CHIP & PIN is to improve the process of fully authenticating the Cardholder / Card. Lets face it, the processes around the checking of someones signature is pretty flawed as we all know !

If Yes;

3. Can you tell us about alternatives (if any) and the minimum requirement to obtain a Chip & Signature Card?

Not aware of any alternatives, however im aware issuers are having to carefully look at how the DDA may impact on these new card scheme rules , but thats all I know.
4. The card industry is confusing retailers and cardholders alike. After Dec 2004, will retailers openly advertise that the wont accept cards whose logos they display that are not verified by a PIN?

That will be an interesting one, personally and this is my view, I dont believe in the short term that that will happen, there will be certain types of trades and even cetain areas of the country that suffer very little card fraud anyway, and therefore it wont really impact them. However, in instances where the opposite is true, and retailers start to be charged back for fraudulent transactions where the CH did not authenticate the transaction with their PIN they may well have to make a business decision not to accept transactions where the PIN number is unknown. Ultimetly it will be a decision that retailers have to make on an individual basis, and they will have to weigh up their risk profile against the possibility of 'annoying' genuine customers. In the longer term I personally think its a good thing if retailers do refuse these types of transactions, we all accept the fact that if we want cash out of an atm we need to know our pin, so its just a matter of re-education to the fact that if u want to use a credit/debit card in a retail enviroment you will have to do the same. Surely anything that makes it harder for fraudsters to rip people off, whether it be CH's / Retailers or the banks is a good thing.??

5. In theory would you say it's possible to clone (because of magstrip retention) a chipped credit card and use the cloned card with a valid PIN in a non-compliant Chip & PIN ATM?

I dont beleive thats any different to how it is today, however I am aware that the Issuing Banks are upgrading all ATM's to be CHIP /PIN compliant in the not to distant future, ( if they havent done so already!!) I know the card schemes have put pretty strict rules in place to ensure all Card Companies / Issuers are compliant by early 05, if they are not they face the risk of heavy fines, so its in their best interests to comply ASAP.

It would be nice to hear the reply of someone from within.

As I said before this is just my interpretation of the new rules, and im not trying to defend or be a spokesperson for the CC Company I work for - god forbid ::) LOL

Lissa

James

Lissa, Thanks

The following is well worth a read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5048243-103680,00.html

I am still asking the same question.

What incentive is there for a credit card holder, who never uses their credit cards to withdraw cash to have a PIN with their Chipped Card?

James

robbies_gal

dont know if this is really relevant to chip and pin but whwn they sent out my husbands new card out for his current account it went missing inthe post then he had 500 pounds withdrawn form the account

the pin also went missing and we think it was the post office

if chip and pin wasnt so essential maybe this wouldnt have happened

i think all cards should have an activation on it and u have to answer several security questions before it can be used not just slung in the post

James

I've used a card (mistakenly) at first that's not valid until December 2004. This card arrived almost three months before its' valid from date. I look forward to hearing what my card issuer has to say.

Dug this lttle lot up, makes you think.
Chip & PIN Compliance in Disarray!
http://www.money.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2004/11/01/cbchip01.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2004/11/01/ixfrontbusiness.html

Is the programme on time?
Retailers still not prepared for Chip & PIN. (29 October, 2004)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/29/chip_pin_time_needed/

Cardholders are clueless on Chip & PIN (13 August, 2004)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/13/clueless_chip_and_pin/

Safety in Numbers? Not likely. (27 October, 2004)
http://money.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5048243-110120,00.html

PIN the signature on the chip. (16 July 2004)
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17247

Put it all together, add Martins concern over rising debt and it makes interesting reading. I wonder when someone will speak up on behalf of consumers?

James

me5678

I discovered yesterday that I was legally entitled not to have Chip and Pin cards if I don't want to as I am covered by the Disability Discrimination Act. So I rang up Barclaycard and within 5 minutes they agreed to send me a Chip and Signature card.

At the moment I have to keep all my card numbers in my mobile phone as phone numbers, and as I never use my Barclaycard in cash machines in the UK or abroad to draw out cash I haven't got that number stored.

I have had trouble in the past working out which telephone number corresponds to which card so adding another card to the mix will make the problem worse.

MarkyMarkD

You can change the PINs on any or all of your cards to be the same, using (virtually?) any ATM. I would recommend doing this to anyone who is not entitled to opt out of CHIP and PIN and to anyone who is so entitled, but who can actually use a PIN pad.

PIN is more secure than signature so people should try to use it if at all possible.

James

You can change the PINs on any or all of your cards to be the same, using (virtually?) any ATM. I would recommend doing this to anyone who is not entitled to opt out of CHIP and PIN and to anyone who is so entitled, but who can actually use a PIN pad.

Not the best of adivce. Frist of all, ask any securtity practioner if they would use the same password as a means of access to all their accounts? Ask them if they should frequently change their passwords. I would suggest the same advice holds good for PINs

Secondly it is not a legal requirement to have a PIN with a card. Trading Standards in my region took this up with one card issuer. Their call centre staff were informing callers that a PIN was a legal requirement from 1 Jan 2005. On Trading Standards intervention the card issuer has changed their tune.

PIN is more secure than signature so people should try to use it if at all possible.

Really see: http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=5644

To commit ATM fraud a PIN is required in most cases.

Thank goodness Martin was able to intervene in the following example:

http://forum.moneysavingexpert.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Questions;action=display;num=1046162199

James