Is BTL Immoral?

DaddyBear

Yes

I wouldn't say its immoral, IMO second home owning is worse. The ease with which you can own BTL and 2nd homes is what's immoral.
There need to be heavy taxes imposed on multiple homes, essentially to help prevent 'stockpiling' of an assest that is becoming harder to obtain.

If you take any other essential item such as water, food or gas. If there was a shortage then there would be rationing on moral grounds. Given that we are not building sufficient houses and that many people now own more property than they need, there needs to be some deterrant, which is best done in the form of tax.

DaddyBear

Yes

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

If I could thank that post 100 times, I would.... :T

You could thank it using all your usernames and you might get close.

shane42

No

A._Badger wrote: »

I've bitten my tongue so many times on this issue, but here goes. I'm sick to death of young people whining about how difficult they find it to buy a house. How damned difficult do they think it was in the past? Do they imagine that you got to 21 and were handed the keys to a house by your father?

When I bought my first property, in 1970, the mortgage took a vast proportion of a miserable income and my wife and I went without almost everything people today seem to expect as a 'right'. We had no new furniture - we bought two secondhand armchairs for £1.50. We had no new kitchen appliances, save for a washing machine we were given as a wedding present. The cooker cost, I believe, £5 in a junk shop. We had no television. We had no stereo. We didn't buy many new clothes. Our holiday was a week in a cheap B&B in Cornwall. We never ate out.

I work with young people who consider astronomical mobile phone bills, several foreign holidays a year, interminable eating out, endless new clothes, toys, gadgets, clubbing, gym membership and the entire panoply of modern urban life to be the absolute bare minimum they expect - and that they should be able to afford a house on top.

It was never easy. It never will be easy - particularly in a small, overcrowded island like this. It isn't even a necessity that you own a house at all. It certainly isn't a right.

So, please, cut the violins. The self-pity and the naked envy are as tiresome as they are risible.

so well said , and so true. when i first bought a small flt i too had nothing, i bought a second hand bed that day and two seater sofa for peanuts they both gave me back ache , today kids want it all and now , they are spoilt!

92203

Yes

shane42 wrote: »

so well said , and so true. when i first bought a small flt i too had nothing, i bought a second hand bed that day and two seater sofa for peanuts they both gave me back ache , today kids want it all and now , they are spoilt!

You and badger are both guilty of mass generalisation.

I'm young and live very prudently. I've even managed so save up £15k, during which time I've had some pretty crap jobs

I feel frustrated because I now earn above the national average wage, but due to massive amounts of HPI I am unable to afford to buy my own home.Had I been born 10 years earlier and been earning the national average wage 10 years ago, I could have afforded a nice house in the area I live in (My parents paid £68k for their house in 1999). Nowardays £100k will buy you a house, but in one of the roughest council estates in town..... certainly not somewhere I would want to live... or raise a family.

shane42

No

92203 wrote: »

You and badger are both guilty of mass generalisation.

I'm young and live very prudently. I've even managed so save up £15k, during which time I've had some pretty crap jobs

I feel frustrated because I now earn above the national average wage, but due to massive amounts of HPI I am unable to afford to buy my own home.Had I been born 10 years earlier and been earning the national average wage 10 years ago, I could have afforded a nice house in the area I live in (My parents paid £68k for their house in 1999). Nowardays £100k will buy you a house, but in one of the roughest council estates in town..... certainly not somewhere I would want to live... or raise a family.

you say you only have a small pension, i dont have one at all!
you say in your area 100k will only buy a hse in a rough area , where i live it will only buy a studio in a rough area, so stop feeling sorry for your self and accept the situation

carolt

shane42 wrote: »

so well said , and so true. when i first bought a small flt i too had nothing, i bought a second hand bed that day and two seater sofa for peanuts they both gave me back ache , today kids want it all and now , they are spoilt!

You bought a second-hand bed and new two-seater sofa?

What a wastrel.. We were given all our stuff second-hand...

Oh. And did I mention? We rent. Far too expensive to buy now, you see.

Old people - they had it all and now want no-one else to have what they had. They were so spoilt!

shane42

No

carolt wrote: »

You bought a second-hand bed and new two-seater sofa?

What a wastrel.. We were given all our stuff second-hand...

Oh. And did I mention? We rent. Far too expensive to buy now, you see.

Old people - they had it all and now want no-one else to have what they had. They were so spoilt!

ha ha , the sofa was 2nd hand too, iam not old ( idont think) 37, i saved hard and went without , i still do ,iam near skint and have no pension, i could not afford to buy a hse in todays market either, but i dont have a problem with people who own BTL , by the way i could not afford to rent either my mortgage is cheaper than the rent of a flat.

92203

Yes

shane42 wrote: »

ha ha , the sofa was 2nd hand too, iam not old ( idont think) 37, i saved hard and went without , i still do ,iam near skint and have no pension, i could not afford to buy a hse in todays market either, but i dont have a problem with people who own BTL , by the way i could not afford to rent either my mortgage is cheaper than the rent of a flat.

This is what I'm doing myself at the moment. Believe me it has been hard going saving what I've saved so far.

However, my main gripe with the property market is that there is undeniably an intergenerational inequality.

10 years ago, it was possible for someone on an average wage to buy a reasonable house. Now this is no longer the case. House prices have multipled way above wage inflation. People have made money just from sitting on an asset.

I will be buying a house in the next 5 years, regardless of whether prices reduce or not. I would rather be able to do so without indebting myself to insane levels.

I am hoping to have a big deposit and a good LTV ratio. It will be interesting to see if I acheive this.

shane42

No

92203 wrote: »

This is what I'm doing myself at the moment. Believe me it has been hard going saving what I've saved so far.

However, my main gripe with the property market is that there is undeniably an intergenerational inequality.

10 years ago, it was possible for someone on an average wage to buy a reasonable house. Now this is no longer the case. House prices have multipled way above wage inflation. People have made money just from sitting on an asset.

I will be buying a house in the next 5 years, regardless of whether prices reduce or not. I would rather be able to do so without indebting myself to insane levels.

I am hoping to have a big deposit and a good LTV ratio. It will be interesting to see if I acheive this.

i couldnt i bought a flt that needed work done it up, then i did it again then i bought a house with leaking room rotton windows no heating 60 yr old wiring ancient kitchen and bathroom etc, now i am still here and i have done it up to acceptble standards not posh , i do feel for people who cant afford to buy i have been there and as i say i could nt afford one now
good luck with your plans

Somerset

Morality has nothing to do with it

DaddyBear wrote: »

I wouldn't say its immoral, IMO second home owning is worse. The ease with which you can own BTL and 2nd homes is what's immoral.
There need to be heavy taxes imposed on multiple homes, essentially to help prevent 'stockpiling' of an assest that is becoming harder to obtain.

If you take any other essential item such as water, food or gas. If there was a shortage then there would be rationing on moral grounds. Given that we are not building sufficient houses and that many people now own more property than they need, there needs to be some deterrant, which is best done in the form of tax.

This is a daft debate. The gist seems to be twofold :

1) The current generation of buyer's can't buy because of prices. Previous generations could because it was then 'affordable' and HPI paints those old prices in a rosy light. It was never affordable - buying your first home always meant you mortgaged your life away. I bought my first home in my early 30's with a mortgage of 80K, it felt like it might as well have been 8 million, it was unimaginable money to me (gross salary of 20K with 15K deposit). Over time 'old' prices always look cheap. It's just a matter of getting to that point ie not defaulting, staying employed, keeping everything crossed - after I bought interest went to 15% on Black Monday ( I was on a fixed of 12.4% ). It has always been and will always be a huge gamble, which pays off over time (if you survive).

2) Owning more than one property. If you seriously propose that individuals can only own one in order to 'free up' more stock for owner-occupiers, what makes you more important than the renter's ? There's a huge number of renter's who never have and never will want to buy at this moment in time so they live on the street ? Maybe they want to buy but can't or they are students, in low-paid jobs, or on benefits, or are temporary workers, or are from abroad (intend to return) or are in the uk on secondment or are in new relationships and 'testing' or etc etc etc.............. Where do these people live ? The national & local government have abrogated their housing responsibility to the private sector. They don't have the stock - they don't want the stock. If people don't agree with that they should petition their councillor's and M.P.'s to change policy. But I don't think they will - they haven't got the money and they don't want the headache.