Testator dies leaving 26K CSA debts

millwall34

Hello all.

I am the executor in an estate having over £26,000 of debts plus substantial debts to HMRC and I don't think the testator was aware of his liability. He and g/f or PWC made Wills from a DIY kit in 1998 and she has asked me to stand as executor, they have three children. The testator leaves an estate of £11,000 cash and an old van and mechanics tools. The balance of his estate, his van, tools and his mobile phone all pass to his girlfriend under his Will.

I am ready to wind up the estate and I prefer to wind in the debts, but I am hearing I cannot wind in debts owed to the CSA.

Briefly, the testator lived a life of crime, was a known drug dealer, notoriously violent, always in and out of prison. Never had a job since leaving school at 16, and there is no evidence he signed on, his prison records say he is no fixed abode but the CSA used his children/girlfriends address for sending bailiffs, and for postal contact which was never opened and piled up for years!! She never felt threatened by the bailiffs, it was her way of life, Mick often beat them up, steals their mobile phone then grabs the keys to their vehicle and goes on a tyre-squealing joyride with bailiff clinging to the drivers door. This was to get police attention and access to prison and his drug contacts.

The cash was used to pay testamentary dispositions and funeral, but there is no money to appoint solicitors and they wont give advice unless the estate has funds. He doesn’t need probate because the estate is below £15,000. I have sent the CSA his death certificate and telephoned them on several occasions and got contradicting information or got passed off with data protection act and contact a solicitor. Mick always made sure his children were OK and even took them on holidays.

There are several discrepancies in the CSA documents which puzzles me how such a liability exists or what I should do with it, I have a feeling the CSA claim against him might not be genuine.

1. the testator was in prison for much of the liability period
2. the testator has never worked and AFAIK never signed on, (I thought CSA was a levy on income)
3. A liability order hearing went ahead in his absence while he was in prison. His HM prison records show no notice to attend being sent, and HMP always brought him to court for hearings.
4. The postal address used by the CSA is the same as his children (and I thought the CSA was all about absent parents)
5. The CSA is aware of him being in prison, it was always explained to bailiffs whenever they turned up

It looks like the HMRC debt is taxation on his estimated drug dealing. It was commonplace bailiffs turning up but I think much of this is down to g/f not smart enough to properly claim social benefits – even their Wills are made from a DIY kit.

Can someone give me some pointers what I should do with the CSA?

RedSky

The CSA will have made calculations on the information they hold, and where information was missing they will have made default assumptions. If you do not agree with these default decisions then you need to provide evidence to show otherwise.

Assuming the situation is the same for a testator as everyone else then it is usual to start by requesting a Data Protection Act file for £10 in order to uncover any discrepancies between the CSA's calculations based on whether the information they hold is correct or not.

Be prepared that, without information to show otherwise, the testator will be assumed guilty by the CSA and you will be required to prove innocence in order to reduce any calculated or assumed liabilities (with strict rules on what is and is not acceptable as innocent).

kelloggs36

if there is no money in the estate, it can't be paid.

millwall34

Hi Redsky, sorry I forgot to mention I am not a legal professional, just a family friend helping out during a difficult time for his g/f and the kids. I have taken the children in with us for the time being.

I cannot do subject access request because the subject has died, I think these are made by an individual, or subject, to a company data controller registered under the data protection act, and AFAIK the CSA is a government agency and has no obligation under the act. Section 29(5).

It not for an executor to deterime whether the testator is guilty, he has plenty of outstanding court appearances, I explained his absence and non-payment of fines to the Magistrates court and they have been very good about this. His fines are not the same as a debt, they are penalties and are nullified on death under the Administration of Estates Act.

The CSA says his estate is liable and doesn’t recognise the estate has been wound up. Its not for an executor to agree or disagree with the CSA, I just want to wind it up. I really don’t know what to do? And is there a official solution to a deceased testator owing the CSA?

millwall34

kelloggs36 wrote: »

if there is no money in the estate, it can't be paid.

What procedure should I follow?

RedSky

Recovering arrears from a deceased estate is a recent enforcement power from the Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008. Consequently you may not find many with experience, including CSA staff which could explain the contradicting information. NACSA may be able to help for a small subscription fee if no-one else comes forth with useful information.

millwall34

I'll look up that legislation, not seen it before. All I know theres nothing in the Administration of Estates Act that says how an executor processes debts owing to the CSA. The CSA itself says Child Support law doesnt allow debts to be written off.

Ive written to the CSA letting them know there is inconsistencies to the amount, if any is actually owed, and suggested the CSA contacts HM prison service. If I dont get a coherent cooperation from the CSA then I'll wind in the debt with the estate and close the file.

The CSA seem to be intentionally difficult, asking for information that already available to them via the Department of Work and Pensions and replying to my correspondence to the deceased and sending it to his address, as if they are making a statement they do not recognise my authority as executor. The address is currently empty, we have the children with us, and their mother is with staying with her dad.

DX2

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2008/ukpga_20080006_en_5#pt3-pb5-l1g38

RedSky

millwall34 wrote: »

The CSA seem to be intentionally difficult, asking for information that already available to them via the Department of Work and Pensions and replying to my correspondence to the deceased and sending it to his address, as if they are making a statement they do not recognise my authority as executor.

Unfortunately this is a common experience when dealing with the CSA, don't take it personally but expect to have to repeat yourself. If you hit a brick wall then contacting your MP may help.

kelloggs36

Even if it is recoverable, if the estate doesn't leave that money it can't be recovered, it is very simple.

millwall34

DX2 well done!

(a) make provision for arrears of child support maintenance for which a deceased person was so liable to be a debt payable by the deceased’s executor or administrator out of the deceased’s estate to the Commission

I needed to know if liability transferred to anyone else on death, the law doesnt apprear to do that. kelloggs36 point rings true as well, cant take what the estate doesnt have.

I'll sign off the case as resolved, but Ill put a note on the bundle the liability is questionable, this is because the CSA not following regulations when calculating a liability, no applicable income, and making up a wrong service address while knowing the deceased was in prison for the purpose of obtaining a liability order. I'll leave the CSA to sort it among themselves, or they can leave the debt on its books for perpetuity.

Thanks for everyone for their prompt input.