Major issue with a debt... court now involved

Toto

Just a few quick questions Mike,

Did you agree to the refurb in the original lease? Was a rent reduction granted based on the refurb? Were the brewery aware you were going to refubish the pub in order to make it fit for business?

I wouldn't suggest that you could claim the costs from the brewery but I do think if the refit wasn't allowed for in the lease you could have a case to dispute their invoice.

I do think Apple has a point but I also think that once it is in front of a judge (if it gets that far) you would have a better chance to have the whole story told. I know that the terms of the lease might be in black and white but so are many contracts that go to tribunal and in those cases the behaviour of both parties is taken into account along with the Ts & Cs.

I think I would worry about having to justify re-leasing a pub right away along with sending an invoice for the full amount of rent to date to the ex tennant in court, knowing the actual loss was far less than I was claiming.

I still believe you have done the right thing. In all honesty it was your only chance and costs little to try. As I said earlier, I would far rather try to counterclaim and have the courts tell me I was liable beyond doubt for the debt, than just cave in to the brewery demands because I was afraid I didn't have a case.

Mike_St_Helens

When we took the pub on, they told us that we could have 6 weeks rent free. This was the only incemtive we recieved.

On taking on the lease the Area manager did say to us that there is a lot of redec that needs doing but im sure we could help.

We moved into the pub and kitted it out within 10 days, all at our expense. After askin and asking and begging for the funds or some help ... nothing came... except us leaving on 01/01/2006 ! happy new year eh !

Spent thousands and thousands, even the roof leaked, when we called them... simply told... its your pub now, we cant get involved as you agreed to repair.

Nice people.....

Toto

Yes nice people. I don't suppose you got the offer of help in writing? Without seeing the lease/documentation and their claim it's impossible really to offer anything helpful. All you can do now is wait and see, I would hope they would drop it to avoid having to spend anything on legal fees, especially as you don't have a hope of paying the invoice even if they do win.

But I still think that having a human look over the whole story in court will help you. Obviously you can prove that 6 weeks rent didn't cover the repairs, and prior to that the pub was unfit for business. I am also wondering if the huge hike in rent was legal (was that stated in the lease, did they give you proper notice).

Does legal aid not cover this? Just a thought, I know nothing about legal aid at all but I'm sure a solicitor would be helpful in pulling the lease apart.

Mike_St_Helens

When I went to the solicitor they worked out our legal aid thin, however you have to earn something daft like 600 per month between you or less to be able to get it... no chance, we get about £2k.

No written conf about the help.. they never put anything in writing...

Whats your view on this though - we have lots and lots of leases, underleases superior landlord etc etc documents, we have signed them all but not one contains a signature from the brewery... not one.....

jazzyjustlaw

Mike_St_Helens wrote:

When I went to the solicitor they worked out our legal aid thin, however you have to earn something daft like 600 per month between you or less to be able to get it... no chance, we get about £2k.

No written conf about the help.. they never put anything in writing...

Whats your view on this though - we have lots and lots of leases, underleases superior landlord etc etc documents, we have signed them all but not one contains a signature from the brewery... not one.....

You are talking about disposable income, shows you did not listen to what the Solicitor said about Public Funding!! Solicitors put everything in writing.

I see your note on what you allege the Court's did and I am shocked they are not allowed to even tell you the form let alone word it they are not lawyers.

jazzyjustlaw

Toto wrote:

Yes nice people. I don't suppose you got the offer of help in writing? Without seeing the lease/documentation and their claim it's impossible really to offer anything helpful. All you can do now is wait and see, I would hope they would drop it to avoid having to spend anything on legal fees, especially as you don't have a hope of paying the invoice even if they do win.

But I still think that having a human look over the whole story in court will help you. Obviously you can prove that 6 weeks rent didn't cover the repairs, and prior to that the pub was unfit for business. I am also wondering if the huge hike in rent was legal (was that stated in the lease, did they give you proper notice).

Does legal aid not cover this? Just a thought, I know nothing about legal aid at all but I'm sure a solicitor would be helpful in pulling the lease apart.

Legal Aid is now Public Funding and if you retain money or property the Statutory Charge applies - in other words its not free!!!!!!!!!

Mike_St_Helens

Sorry I may have been misunderstood.

I did listen, Indeed I did... My total income is the higher amt, the disposable is the 600 ish... However no acc is taken to taxes, utilities etc etc... they did not put this in writing, TRUST ME... they do not always put it in writing.

Next, The man at the court told me what exactly I said earlier... why would I say otherwise.

next - They do tell you what forms to complete and why... even theor website tells you this.

Sorry im sounding harsh, Ive been SH** upon from a great hight and am very bitter, but dont need people telling me that i have said something and they sai 'im surprised they said that' in other words yeah yeah.... I dont allege..... i am sayin what was said...

jazzyjustlaw

Mike_St_Helens wrote:

Sorry I may have been misunderstood.

I did listen, Indeed I did... My total income is the higher amt, the disposable is the 600 ish... However no acc is taken to taxes, utilities etc etc... they did not put this in writing, TRUST ME... they do not always put it in writing.

Next, The man at the court told me what exactly I said earlier... why would I say otherwise.

next - They do tell you what forms to complete and why... even theor website tells you this.

Sorry im sounding harsh, Ive been SH** upon from a great hight and am very bitter, but dont need people telling me that i have said something and they sai 'im surprised they said that' in other words yeah yeah.... I dont allege..... i am sayin what was said...[/QUOTE

Sorry if i came over as harsh. Solicitors ought to put things in writing and at most Courts these days they have a sign up saying that they cannot tell you w hich forms to fill in, what to write and they do not give legal advice. I am just concerned for you thats all.

good luck

fizzel81

sorry i know nothing that would be of any help to you however i just want to wish you luck it sounds like you have been / are being taken for a ride, i hope you get a positive outcome out of this hugs xx

Toto

I'm certainly no expert on pub leases by any stretch of the imagination. I have never come across a contract which doesn't need signing by both parties though. Surely if that was the case you could type out any old contract saying they need to pay £1000,000 a week for you to have the pub, I can't see a contract is legally binding without both parties signing.

Is there a place for them to sign?