Fuel.

Graham_Devon

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

BTW if its all tax, and if we're being ripped off here uniquely, then why is unleaded only 13th most expensive in Europe? We pay more tax than other countries yet fuel costs less here. Could it be perhaps that other things than tax influence the price? Having read Hamish McJobbie's froth about 50% tax hikes, perhaps he would like to pay the price seen in lower tax countries? Where the pump price is higher than here....?

That's it, just like a labourite would, ignore diesel and focus on unleaded.

Now, if I could just quote this from the Department of Energy and Climate change, then maybe, just maybe, we will get a proper, realistic view.

And then maybe, you could explain why you ignore the fact we have the highest diesel costs in the EU, which, funnily enough, the department state, is due to taxes:

In September 2009 average UK unleaded petrol prices, including taxes, were the ninth highest in the EU at 105.9 pence per litre when presented in a common currency basis.

The highest price was in the Netherlands, at 119.6 pence per litre, whilst the lowest price was in Bulgaria at 79.4 pence per litre.

Average UK diesel prices including taxes in September 2009 were the highest within the EU at 106.6 pence per litre, whilst the lowest price was in Bulgaria at 73.5 pence per litre.

The high UK diesel price is mainly due to the taxes levied, which formed 66 per cent of the total price for diesel in September 2009, compared to a range of 42 to 60 per cent in the rest of the EU.

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/source/prices/prices.aspx

JonnyBravo

Graham_Devon wrote: »

That's it, just like a labourite would, ignore diesel and focus on unleaded.

Now, if I could just quote this from the Department of Energy and Climate change, then maybe, just maybe, we will get a proper, realistic view.

And then maybe, you could explain why you ignore the fact we have the highest diesel costs in the EU, which, funnily enough, the department state, is due to taxes:




http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/source/prices/prices.aspx

If I could thank your post twice I would.

Great stats to show up the lies Rochdale continues to peddle.



Taking out tax and duty we get our diesel for 36.5p/l. That's cheaper than 25 of the 26 other countries. (Only Bulgaria get it cheaper). We add in the tax and duty and hey presto we get charged the most for diesel..... that's right.... more than all 26 other countries. An incredible 9.5% more than the next nearest even!

Our near neighbours in France buy for a similar price to us but sell it for only 89p/l. That's right we pay over 19.5% more!! No wonder hauliers based in the UK are struggling to compete with lorries coming over with full tanks from France etc.



Oh and we're 9th most expensive for unleaded too.... not 13th like Rochdale likes to claim. Yet before tax and duty is added the fuel this country buys is way down as 25th most expensive.



As for your point that I would still be moaning about the price if the 2.3p hadn't been added...... irrelevant. I was replying to your quote.....

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

The main point to remember is that the price of crude is rising and rising. We're not seeing rises at pump because of tax, its all crude.

Just another example of spin from a shonky Labour supporter about a Government that has long since forgotten it's promise to be "purer than pure".

baileysbattlebus

JonnyBravo wrote: »

If I could thank your post twice I would.

Great stats to show up the lies Rochdale continues to peddle.



Taking out tax and duty we get our diesel for 36.5p/l. That's cheaper than 25 of the 26 other countries. (Only Bulgaria get it cheaper). We add in the tax and duty and hey presto we get charged the most for diesel..... that's right.... more than all 26 other countries. An incredible 9.5% more than the next nearest even!

Our near neighbours in France buy for a similar price to us but sell it for only 89p/l. That's right we pay over 19.5% more!! No wonder hauliers based in the UK are struggling to compete with lorries coming over with full tanks from France etc.



Oh and we're 9th most expensive for unleaded too.... not 13th like Rochdale likes to claim. Yet before tax and duty is added the fuel this country buys is way down as 25th most expensive.



As for your point that I would still be moaning about the price if the 2.3p hadn't been added...... irrelevant. I was replying to your quote.....



Just another example of spin from a shonky Labour supporter about a Government that has long since forgotten it's promise to be "purer than pure".

I guess Rochdale used the AA for his data - it is for October not September and if I can count the UK was 13th for unleaded and 2nd for diesel.

http://www.theaa.com/onlinenews/allaboutcars/fuel/2009/october2009.pdf

Actually if you look at some of the countries - the likes of Bulgaria, Hungary, Malta, Poland etc etc, where income is a lot less than here - an awful lot less - fuel regardless of type is much more expensive for them than it is for us.

Graham_Devon

baileysbattlebus wrote: »

I guess Rochdale used the AA for his data - it is for October not September and if I can count the UK was 13th for unleaded and 2nd for diesel.

http://www.theaa.com/onlinenews/allaboutcars/fuel/2009/october2009.pdf

Actually if you look at some of the countries - the likes of Bulgaria, Hungary, Malta, Poland etc etc, where income is a lot less than here - an awful lot less - fuel regardless of type is much more expensive for them than it is for us.

The article I linked too has already taken that into account:

when presented in a common currency basis.

Rochdale_Pioneers

baileysbattlebus wrote: »

I guess Rochdale used the AA for his data - it is for October not September and if I can count the UK was 13th for unleaded and 2nd for diesel.

http://www.theaa.com/onlinenews/allaboutcars/fuel/2009/october2009.pdf

Actually if you look at some of the countries - the likes of Bulgaria, Hungary, Malta, Poland etc etc, where income is a lot less than here - an awful lot less - fuel regardless of type is much more expensive for them than it is for us.

Thanks for that. Always happy to be called a liar when the facts proving my point are so close to hand!

To restate, it is a fact that we are 13th - one three - most expensive on Unleaded. Its more expensive in France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands to name a few. Looking at the DECC link, its interesting to note the rate of tax paid in the EU puts a lie to the "taxed most here" argument. Tax on Unleaded - UK 66% Sweden 66% Netherlands 67% Germany 66%, with France and Belgium paying 1% less at 65%.

So, identical tax elsewhere yet higher prices. Does that mean that pump prices are (a) entirely dependent on tax or (b) not entirely dependent on tax? Perhaps production costs might be an issue? As less tax is paid in France yet it costs more it suggests higher margins for retailers or higher production/distribution costs. When you look at diesel, we pay the same tax as we do on Unleaded, yet the price is higher!

How can that be? Isn't the price all down to tax as the frothers claim? Or could our ludicrous lack of cracking capacity on diesel - forcing to import finished diesel from elsewhere - have anything to do with it? Lets ask the petrol industry association: "In the last year, the differential in wholesale prices of petrol and diesel has widened to over $100 per tonne or more at times, equivalent to over 10p per litre. This differential between diesel and unleaded petrol is reflected in pump prices at filling stations"

According to the AA its 105.1p average for unleaded, and 106.2p for diesel. According to the petrol retailers, the wholesale price of refined diesel - which we have to buy in en masse because of lack of UK refining capacity - is responsible for diesel not costing 96.2p a litre. Diesel would still be more expensive than most of Europe, but balanced off by Unleaded being cheaper than most of Europe.

baileysbattlebus

Graham_Devon wrote: »

The article I linked too has already taken that into account:

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I wasn't defending Rochdale, it's just unfair to call someone a liar because their data source is different to someone else's. If I'm travelling abroad with a car or hiring a car abroad the AA is my first port of call for fuel prices.

Graham_Devon

baileysbattlebus wrote: »

I wasn't defending Rochdale, it's just unfair to call someone a liar because their data source is different to someone else's. If I'm travelling abroad with a car or hiring a car abroad the AA is my first port of call for fuel prices.

Liar was a bit strong, I will agree.

However, it's a bit annoying to see a labourite always talk about the best figures. Were all talking generally about fuel. Rochdale specifically highlights unleaded while totally ignoring diesel.

It's that kind of stuff we get from labour all the time. It's bloody annoying! It's all twisting things to suit.

IlonaRN

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

Thanks for that. Always happy to be called a liar when the facts proving my point are so close to hand!

To restate, it is a fact that we are 13th - one three - most expensive on Unleaded. Its more expensive in France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands to name a few. Looking at the DECC link, its interesting to note the rate of tax paid in the EU puts a lie to the "taxed most here" argument. Tax on Unleaded - UK 66% Sweden 66% Netherlands 67% Germany 66%, with France and Belgium paying 1% less at 65%.
..snip...

It's strange. Some years ago, England was much cheaper than Denmark for petrol, and if we visited in the car (a rare occurance), we made sure to completely fill the tank before going back to Denmark. (When I lived in Denmark)

I was in Denmark in September, and found the petrol to be around the same price as England, if not cheaper. (I now live in England)

I believe German petrol is still cheaper than Danish, so I don't believe that it is any more expensive than the English petrol.

Rochdale_Pioneers

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Liar was a bit strong, I will agree.

However, it's a bit annoying to see a labourite always talk about the best figures. Were all talking generally about fuel. Rochdale specifically highlights unleaded while totally ignoring diesel.

Thats like me saying that its bloody annoying that you focused entirely on diesel and ignored unleaded.

This debate has been a good one. I've learned that the old complain about the UK paying more tax is no longer true - we are in line with most of our closest neighbours on unleaded tax, and pay less (10-15p a litre!) than they do. That - I hope we can all agree - is a good thing, and places into context complaints about tax. We're not out of line with fuel duty on unleaded.

Where we are out of line is diesel. We charge the same for diesel as unleaded - everyone else taxes diesel less. The EU as a whole has a lack of refining capacity on diesel with the UK especially hit. The PIA state that this is worth 10p a litre on UK diesel pump prices.

What we clearly need is for someone to intervene in the energy market and compel the oil companies to invest the ocean of profits in refinery capacity in the UK. This is something Labour have failed to do and they deserve to be condemned for it.

However, anyone got high expectations for Tory intervention in the free market to make it happen? How about in slashing fuel duty? I am all for debates on policy and examination of the facts. Its where it turns ludicrously partisan that it falls down - especially when the government in waiting would change nothing. Its worth remembering that the fuel tax escalator ran for longer under the Tories than it did under Labour.

StevieJ

I wonder how long it will take Obama to tap into a ready made source of tax revenue to pay off that deficit