Music downloads, how legal is legal enough?

Quincy_3

Can someone answer my previous post on this thread and also I have just bought on PS2 Hitman Blood Money and when I looked in the back for a track listing it came up with.

Franz Schubert, Ave Maria, The work is in the public domain, whats that all about

Alfie_E

Quincy wrote:

Franz Schubert, Ave Maria, The work is in the public domain, whats that all about

That means Franz Schubert has been dead for at least seventy years. For written works, copyright starts from the moment of creation, and lasts until seventy years after an author’s death, be that a writer or composer. After that, you can freely transcribe, modify or perform their works – they become public domain.

If Hitman Blood Money contains a recording of a human performance of Ave Maria, then that will carry its own performance copyright. This lasts for fifty years after the performance.

nej

I've been a fairly long-term user of AllOfMp3, however an article on The Register yesterday is enough to convince me to stop using it now. Everybody should read this:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/30/allofmp3_illegal/

p_to_the_s_to_the_g

The IFPI tried to take action against the site last year but failed because it does not break Russian laws, nor is it illegal to import music from the site into many countries.
the article refered to is by a british based firm of solicitors who do a lots of work for the british music industry...

patrick0

I've been downloading from allofmp3 for around 4 years and am very happy with it. I don't download a large amount of music though.

There was an article published recently saying Allofmp3 is the most popular UK download site after iTunes -- ie. more popular than Napster etc.

Also, this Guardian article from May 2005 says:

Last month the site escaped prosecution by the Moscow authorities following a complaint by the IFPI, the organisation representing the international recording industry, but the dispute continues. There has been a lot of coverage of allofmp3 in the international press, which has largely concluded that UK consumers can legally download the music until the dispute is resolved.

patrick0

From article on AllOfMP3.com UK popularity:

According to XTN, Apple's iTunes Music Store accounted for 44 per cent of music download purchases in the UK last month. AllofMP3.com came in second, with a 14 per cent market share. That puts it ahead of Napster (eight per cent), Wippit (six per cent) and MSN (six per cent) among the nation's top-five digital music suppliers.

bs7

nej wrote:

I've been a fairly long-term user of AllOfMp3, however an article on The Register yesterday is enough to convince me to stop using it now. Everybody should read this:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/30/allofmp3_illegal/

As others have suggested, i'd read that with a pinch of salt.
Remember - according to the music industry - everyone that downloads mp3s is either a terrorist or a drug-dealer!!!

They should be reasonably content in the meantime with the fact that people are paying anything - at least there is a shift toward legal, albeit grey, downloads.

I think the biggest problem is that the cost savings from online music isn't being passed on to the consumers!

It seems "legit" download sites are only using it as a chance to increase their profit margins rather than offer genuine value for money.
i.e. an album may cost £7.99 via itunes but is only £8.75 (or less with promotional vouchers) at cd-wow.com - so for a £0.76 saving you're losing the jewel case, the booklet/cover and back cover, the cd, and postage to you - so it doesn't seem that good a deal.
You may be paying slightly less but getting a lot less at the same time.
And remember once you've got the CD you can use itunes (or many other applications) to import it onto your computer in electronic format anyway - but also have the convenience of having the CD too.

nickweeb

Totally agree - I was about to compose a pretty much identical email to this until I reached this final post! I run a small record label 'FARFIELD Records' and rely on royalties from CD, download sales and radio / TV use for a reasonable part of my income - as do the artists and composers I represent. I also run a legal download store in the UK, fully licensed with the MCPS /PRS and all the labels and artists. I can assure you that I am no corporate fat cat!

I have to say, Martin, that I think it's a poor show that you are promoting this website in the first instance - there's a fine line between money saving and theft!

It is the smaller labels that lose out the most from copyright theft, and not all music can rely on live performances for income - there's a very small minority of top artists who can make money from live shows.

Nick

raven_r wrote:

I am a musician -a songwriter and a singer - Martin Lewis is a writer and personality - who I generally think is also a 'good guy'.

Lets take some similar issues here. If I write, record, and release a track - probably not via a big faceless multinational label, more likely (like most music) it will be just me or via a small label run by someone with a love of music and little spare time. OK so I as an artist - perhaps what once would have been called 'indie', needs to eat - how do I do it? Well by living off the meagre income from downloads and cd sales. Without those I'd have to get a real job and stop making music that others love to isten to.

Remove the income from cd and download sales by releasng downloads for next to nothing and I have no income, I go back to working 9-to-5 and an entire genre of music dissappears before I have the time to say 'IPOD'.

Lets compare:
Martin will record a tv show or an interview for itv etc and will expect a fee. If he found out that the tape had been 'lent' to an unlicensed (in the EU) Sat TV company and was freely available all over the media, and that the originators of the recording merely said 'sorry - nothing to do with us - no money for you' - do you think he would be happy? Would he feel pised off and ripped off by faceless corporations benefiting from his intellect without acknoledging his creativity? You bet he would!

So do I!

When - 10 years ago - I ran a band who had a minor record deal in France, we would make £30 k sterling per year off records - not enough to pay 5 guys to live but enough to make us prepared to keep going with our stuff to feed the needs of our fans.

Take that base level of income away and those 'minority interest' bands will no longer exist - and music (and all of us) will be the poorer for their passing.

This isnt an issue of ripping of multinationals (ok you 40 somethings probably get a thrill getting the latest from Mark Knopfler for free on the net), it's about music, art, and giving young, experimental musicians the chance to fly (until they get seduced by filthy lucre, like the rest of us).

We are all the poorer for the passing of this very late 20C/early 21C form of art, and if we can help sustain it without reverting to some daft government subsidy scheme (such as supports all the allegedly 'proper' classical music endeavours nowadays) then so much the better.

If you like your music, varied, raw, experimental and new - fight the download pirates.

If you hate the major record labels - remember that most of them were once small fry trying to make a difference - they may be overpaid nowadays, and you might want to bloody their noses - just dont flatten budding artists in the process.

By the way, my last album (for all the reasons mentioned above) is called 'Giving it Away' and is available for free download at https://www.studiowizard.com. Along with tracks from earlier albums - just in case you thought I was a bread head!

I still produce young, exciting, new talent. I only wish for them the chance I had to shine, for a year or two - and make a difference.

I hope this changes a few minds.

ht

thehound

REG VARDY's Point 3 (below) is unbelievable. Just because the artistes you've heard of are super rich doesn't mean all musicians shouldn't get paid!!! Most of us earn nothing compared to other skilled workers and a cheque every 8 months or so for £80 for times I have played on backing tracks for major artists helps; if only just a little. (When those of you who attend a concert see the poor musicians sitting there, note that they got about £85 to travel there, rehearse and do the concert and arrive home at midnight! although I realise it is their choice of work).
Another suitable poll might be: What do Moneysavers find acceptable in order to save money? Steeling sweeties from Sainsbury's? Paying cash for a discount? Filling in tax / vat forms slightly incorrectly?
After all, they can all do very well without a few pennies from just me!

regvardy wrote:

Having read the discussion here are my summarised points:

1: why did the National Press (i read the Sunday Times) include the site in its comparison tables? Could it be that fact that the editotials teams quite rightly disagree with the co-ordinated and expensive price structures of itunes and napster etc.... and the download limitations. I absolutely loathe the idea of not really owning an inferior quality track from itunes, and paying thru the nose for it. I suspect the editors agree. PS. I hadn't heard about the site, but like lots of other Sunday Times readers I have now.

2: Its not P2P and I'm not uploading. How can I possibly be prosecuted????

3: I agree that in the fullness of time paying for music may well turn out to be an Historical Blip. Live shows is where the money's at. Living of the royalties for the rest of your life for from some song that took 10 minutes to write doesn't wash. When the majority of the royalties are going to Middle men, they can get stuffed.

4. Its a global economy, think of all those jobs that are outsourced from the UK to India, China, Taiwan etc...... If Western Europe and US corporates are going to take advantage of low labour costs, then consumers in the west and US should be free to take advantage of music downloads that are legal in Russia. You got to take the rough with the smooth. The US, they are the drivers, are trying to protect their new knowledge based economies thru copyright and patenting. It ain't going to work there's a going to be a backlash.

thehound

HERE HERE!

raven_r wrote:

I am a musician -a songwriter and a singer - Martin Lewis is a writer and personality - who I generally think is also a 'good guy'.

Lets take some similar issues here. If I write, record, and release a track - probably not via a big faceless multinational label, more likely (like most music) it will be just me or via a small label run by someone with a love of music and little spare time. OK so I as an artist - perhaps what once would have been called 'indie', needs to eat - how do I do it? Well by living off the meagre income from downloads and cd sales. Without those I'd have to get a real job and stop making music that others love to isten to.

Remove the income from cd and download sales by releasng downloads for next to nothing and I have no income, I go back to working 9-to-5 and an entire genre of music dissappears before I have the time to say 'IPOD'.

Lets compare:
Martin will record a tv show or an interview for itv etc and will expect a fee. If he found out that the tape had been 'lent' to an unlicensed (in the EU) Sat TV company and was freely available all over the media, and that the originators of the recording merely said 'sorry - nothing to do with us - no money for you' - do you think he would be happy? Would he feel pised off and ripped off by faceless corporations benefiting from his intellect without acknoledging his creativity? You bet he would!

So do I!

When - 10 years ago - I ran a band who had a minor record deal in France, we would make £30 k sterling per year off records - not enough to pay 5 guys to live but enough to make us prepared to keep going with our stuff to feed the needs of our fans.

Take that base level of income away and those 'minority interest' bands will no longer exist - and music (and all of us) will be the poorer for their passing.

This isnt an issue of ripping of multinationals (ok you 40 somethings probably get a thrill getting the latest from Mark Knopfler for free on the net), it's about music, art, and giving young, experimental musicians the chance to fly (until they get seduced by filthy lucre, like the rest of us).

We are all the poorer for the passing of this very late 20C/early 21C form of art, and if we can help sustain it without reverting to some daft government subsidy scheme (such as supports all the allegedly 'proper' classical music endeavours nowadays) then so much the better.

If you like your music, varied, raw, experimental and new - fight the download pirates.

If you hate the major record labels - remember that most of them were once small fry trying to make a difference - they may be overpaid nowadays, and you might want to bloody their noses - just dont flatten budding artists in the process.

By the way, my last album (for all the reasons mentioned above) is called 'Giving it Away' and is available for free download at https://www.studiowizard.com. Along with tracks from earlier albums - just in case you thought I was a bread head!

I still produce young, exciting, new talent. I only wish for them the chance I had to shine, for a year or two - and make a difference.

I hope this changes a few minds.

ht