Unenforceability & Template Letters

CeeBeeDeeBee

Thanks for that Never In Doubt I will send them off first thing Monday.

I had a look at the HCEOA site, I had to smile a little when I read;

" Is it true the law allows a High Court Enforcement Officer to break into properties to take goods?

Yes it is. But the circumstances when this can be done are limited. Goods may well be taken where the following apply for example "

No mention at all that you are quite within your rights not to let them in in the first place!

Is it only bailiffs from HMRC that can break in as I might have some bailiffs coming round for unpaid Business Rates soon.

Just one other thing (sorry for taking up so much of your time) - on one of my CCA's (Capital One), there is no credit limit, just a term which says along the lines of "we will determine your credit limit and let you know" - is this sufficient to make the CCA enforceable?

Thanks
Chris

tryingto

Hi NeverinDoubt,

Cuba sounds amazing. Because of my stupidity with credit cards I haven't had a holiday in over ten years (and am not likely to for a llllllooooooong time, but it is deserved and I have totally learned my lesson.!) but Cuba would definitely be on my list and until then I can live vicariously through others!

I got my credit files (bad isn't the word) and all of the companies are on there. Not pretty reading. You wanted me to check that before I went any further, in case any weren't showing. I had previously applied for CCA agreements, but with most got nowhere. What should I be doing now?

I know there has been all sorts of legal things going on about agreements and CCA etc but I don't fully understand what that means for people checking their agreements. Thanks very much.

never-in-doubt

tobyandoatch wrote: »

Hi

Not sure if anyone can help? Basically I have a loan with RBS which they have lost the signed agreement for and admitted this fact. I have had a response to numerous letter requesting that the balance be returned to zero and that they do not issue a default on the account as it is currently in dispute. This is part of the letter they have sent back which I need some help with a reply:

Read some more of this thread and you'll see, lenders still add defaults and you need to to take them to court (and hope you win) but in all honesty, a 6yr black mark must be better than enforcement of the loan, thus you'll see me state a lot of the time that although unenforceability can be suited to some people, it may not be the best recourse due to the fact the lender still seem to act as they desire knowing you won't or can't afford court action against them.

In a recent case at Leeds, the lender was told to remove the default as no agreement means no debt which means no default could be registered due to no signature being present (etc, etc).... bottom line you'd have to keep hassling them or try court - but personally the fact they have no agreement and cannot enforce the debt must be the no1 priority here>

never-in-doubt

C2K wrote: »

Hi N-I-D

Thank you for your comments, I don't know if it is still worth persuing on the basis that I was only sent a copy of CCA with the prescribed terms plus my signature, but not a TRUE COPY that I specifically asked for using your template letter. The covering letter they sent also states:

"Under the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 we can comply with the legal requirements by sending you a copy of an agreement in the same form as the one that you signed, but excluding the signature box, customer signature and the date of signature."

Does it imply that the Consumer Regulations 1983 overpowered the Consumer Credit Act 1974?

Your further comments would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks one again.

Hiya

Ok, when you're dealing with acts such as CCA1974 or CN/CNCD1983 these work alongside each other as the CCA had provision to the other act due to the CN/CNCD mentioning CCA's within its own legislation. Remember an act is only that, guidance/legislation and not necessarily law such as criminal law therefore making it easy for both the lender and the consumer to revert between the two.

In your case, you'd argue that due to the lack of true copy, you are now in fact considering the issue of CPR31.16 in order for them to provide (CPR31.16 is a disclosure prior to court action) a copy of the original, without which would have a fundamental decision as to the actual enforceability of the alleged debt. i.e. you are threatening them with court action (in particular CPR31,16/disclosure) before you agree to the debt as you feel the agreement is non existent or contains errors in which case you'd not be liable to pay anything under s.127 (CCA1974).

Send the dispute letter from page 1 - adding a bit similar as above.

never-in-doubt

CeeBeeDeeBee wrote: »

Just one other thing (sorry for taking up so much of your time) - on one of my CCA's (Capital One), there is no credit limit, just a term which says along the lines of "we will determine your credit limit and let you know" - is this sufficient to make the CCA enforceable?

Unfortunately this does not render the CCA unenforceable - the credit limit should be there somewhere (maybe not as clear as we give you £3000 but more a comparison, try looking for something such as assuming a limit of £1500 at the rate of XX% - i.e. the comparison. :mad:

debtman2007

I have been sent pages and pages of terms and conditions from 1st Credit. Is this a vaild agreement?? The only link to me is a printed name and address. Should it have my signature or something like that on it?

never-in-doubt

debtman2007 wrote: »

I have been sent pages and pages of terms and conditions from 1st Credit. Is this a vaild agreement?? The only link to me is a printed name and address. Should it have my signature or something like that on it?

Should have a signature or if it is a true copy, then possibly not unless you demand a copy of the original quoting CPR31.16 or the like (demand for disclosure).

Have a read from page 1 to see what to do, but the prescribed terms are as follows and easy to understand.

Good Luck.....

Prescribed Terms

A Amount of credit
A term stating the amount of credit

B Repayments
A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following-

(a) Number of repayments;
(b) Amount of repayments;
(c) Frequency and timing of repayments;
(d) Dates of repayments;
(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

C Rate of interest
A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement

D Credit limit
This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.

Which of these applies to you depends on the type of agreement you have?

For a Running Account (credit card) agreement

BC and D is applicable

For a Restricted Use Debtor Creditor Supplier

• Where the dealer is the supplier and the creditor is the one providing the finance.
• The money can only be used for the purpose it is given.
• There is no interest on the purchase (the cash price is the same as the total price)
• And there is no advance payment

A is applicable

For a fixed Sum Credit Agreement
A conventional credit agreement with none of the above restrictions

A and B is applicable

For a Hire Agreement

B is Applicable

never-in-doubt

tryingto wrote: »

Hi NeverinDoubt,

Cuba sounds amazing. Because of my stupidity with credit cards I haven't had a holiday in over ten years (and am not likely to for a llllllooooooong time, but it is deserved and I have totally learned my lesson.!) but Cuba would definitely be on my list and until then I can live vicariously through others!

I got my credit files (bad isn't the word) and all of the companies are on there. Not pretty reading. You wanted me to check that before I went any further, in case any weren't showing. I had previously applied for CCA agreements, but with most got nowhere. What should I be doing now?

I know there has been all sorts of legal things going on about agreements and CCA etc but I don't fully understand what that means for people checking their agreements. Thanks very much.

Hiya,

First thing you should be doing is to send the standard CCA Request letter from page 1 and send it recorded to each lender/DCA that shows on the credit report. Send £1 with each and see what they send back. If nothing, then send the reminder letter, if they send the CCA then read the prescribed terms and check for errors.

If the lender does not respond after about a month then simply stop paying, yea they will default you but if already the case then nothing to lose.

What you have to bear in mind, if these are older debts (look at credit report and see the last payment/default date) and if it is approaching 6yrs old then do nothing cos they will vanish (Statute Barred) after 6yrs and writing in could upset-the-applecart so to speak.

Good Luck

captainhaggis

Hi all,

Given that it looks like these requests for CCAs and the fact that they might still be unenforceable means it's worthwhile to persue this line of action, I wonder whether I'd be silly to do so given that I'm in payment arrangements with my creditors.

Are they likely to make it more difficult for me to stick to these arrangements if it looks like I'm aiming to take this CCA route with them?

I have the following accounts/years :

EGG CARD circa 2000
LLOYDS VISA circa 2003
LLOYDS LOAN circa 2006
EGG VISA circa 2001
EGG VISA circa 2001
MBNA AMEX (probably) circa 2006 (this card used to be a Mastercard but was changed to an Amex and I cannot remember signing anything new when this happened)

From your experience, does it sound like some of these might be unenforceable?

Thanks heaps .

EDITED TO ADD : While in a payment arrangement with MBNA during which I was paying them about £42.00 a month, they continued to charge me about £40.00 a month for PPI. GRRRRRRRRR.

I want to challenge the debt and claim back the PPI but don't want to jeopardise the arrangement I have in place or the F&F we've negotiated (but that I haven't signed up to, yet).

never-in-doubt

No, going down the unenforceability line only shows the lender you know the law - it cannot and will not affect anything you have agreed unless they do not respond and you cease paying, which wouldn;t be a bad thing anyway!

Why pay, the defaults will stay for 6yrs so keep the money until you have established enforceability and lawful agreements.......

Regards to MBNA - you should claim this asap but they will offer to reduce the debt with the refunds so you may have a fight on your hands getting hard currency from them. Regards to F&F offers, once the debt is with a DCA the offers can be much smaller than if with the lender, sometomes as much as 10% of the debt amount!

So you could offer say Egg £4k as F&F on a £10k debt, they say no. However the DCA may only want £1500 to clear it!