The High Street is really suffering...

Dan:_4

mbga9pgf wrote: »

I think you will be proved a fool.

You have already been proved a fool - let me know what it's like

lostinrates

Quasar wrote: »

lemonjelly wrote: »

Would you believe it, I travel on the Overground to get my meat from a local butcher by Kew Gardens Station.

London has two huge advantages for independant retailers over a lot of other areas in UK: one is that there is a good supply of people who can pay for things like independant whole foods (and I'm not disputing the many more who are on very low incomes).

Secondly, people know they have legs. few people expect to be able to drive to where they shop. If you have a travel card/oyster bizzing about costs no extra.

It alwaysd, for example, saddens me when people talk wistfully about a faceless London. Apart from time spent working abrod my father's life has been in central and West London. People in shops/restaurants/pubs he's been going into for decades greet him by first name, often know what he's buying/eating/drinking.

[Deleted User]

fc123 wrote: »

It's quite common for under 25's to post on BR board with 30k of debt (incl car finance) but with very average incomes.

No way we could have borrowed sums like that years ago.

Then they start again after BR because they were never made to work to repay their debts. I believe that a BR can go BR again and again.

They should be made to take on two jobs like my dh did, in order to stay debt free. Menial jobs are available

[Deleted User]

The shops that are failing near us are the ones that sell very expensive items like murano glass etc, pandering to the fur coat no bloomers brigade who come here for afternoon tea and a browse around the shops

lostinrates

kittie wrote: »

The shops that are failing near us are the ones that sell very expensive items like murano glass etc, pandering to the fur coat no bloomers brigade who come here for afternoon tea and a browse around the shops

Whereas here similar shops are amoung those surviving, although I did notice yesterday one had closed nearby (more clothing and gifty then purely gifty.) I also noticed a new estate agents office opened locally (local chain) hich surprised me a little: not that it had opened but that its opened very, very close to an existing office in the same chain: we're rural enough to have ofices covering many miles.

lemonjelly

Pennywise wrote: »

We need some coherent plans to rejuvenate the town centres. The councils are the main culprits with their expensive car parks, parking restrictions and one-way systems which simply make drivers go to the out of town stores instead. It's as if the councils want the town centres for themselves for their "pet" projects such as council offices, museums, art centres, etc. But, I don't think that supporting shops in town centres is the complete answer.

Looking back in history (certainly the towns near me), the main streets were predominantly houses rather than shops, mixed in with warehouses and other traders. Many houses would incorporate professionals such as doctors, vets, lawyers, etc as part of the house. There was certainly not the proliferation of retail outlets that we've seen in the last few decades.

Car transport is the most popular form of transport - however hard councils try to think otherwise, people still want to use their cars. It's because it's become so hard to drive into town centres that virtually every business type is moving to out of town centres. It started with supermarkets, but now even banks, accountants, vets, etc have their offices on out of town parks instead of town centres - there's only one reason for this and that is the ease and convenience for the majority of people who travel by car. In another 50 years or so, perhaps car transport won't be so prevailant but today it is and the councils and planners need to get used to it and not fight it.

If you look at nearly any High Street shop front, and then look skywards, you'll see 2 or 3 empty floors that used to be living accommodation, but now maybe storage or if you're lucky maybe a second floor belonging to the shop or an office. Just think about the lost potential of hundreds, if not thousands of unused square footage in every town centre.

I think the planners and politicians, working alongside architects, etc., need to come up with a revolutionary new idea for town centres to turn them back into places where people are happy to live, work and play. Sadly, it seems that the current trend is simply to convert old warehouses into posh flats - surely the best minds in the country can come up with something better than that!

I agree with the above, but would add there used to be something more to "shopping" than there is now.

Shopping used to be a communal activity. Look at old B&W photo's of town centres, marketplaces and the like. There was atmosphere. Shopping/trade would be based around the village green, or the town square, or the main street. As well as shopping, you'd catch up with neighbours, local characters, the rest of the family, local news etc.

Now, traders are spread and disparate, so you're unlikely to bump into anyone (or have the time!). Alternatively, the same applies to the "one size fits all" superstore.

Thing is, shopping was a public, social practise. Now it is private - in these supermalls, or online, or whatever. Markets used to set up in public spaces, where most of the local populace could go. Now, it is all private land, no public space. And it doesn't usually feel a comfortable place to browse, relax, speculate over potential purchases.

And it is so blooming rare to see another person smiling!

I particularly like this comment too...

FC123 said
I shut my shop (after nearly 11 years in that location) this March having been an independent retailer for 19 years in large shops and a market trader (but in places like Covent Garden) for 5 years before that.

I had many reasons for choosing to shut and it wasn't a simple case of drop in T/O due to Cr Cr nor that we hadn't 'stacked it up ' in the 'good times'. The rent review increase based on false valuations that we couldn't disprove became the final clincher.

In a nutshell, we had 1000's of office workers relocated out of the immediate area which affected some more than others (depending on whether one was an 'everyday' type business or more geared just to the tourists) plus LL were still increasing rents at a ridiculous level.

The office exodus came just after Northern Rock event in 2007.

As a stranger walking around the area, you wouldn't know which indie shops were surviving by other means (and yes, some had well dodgy sidelines) nor that some, with local LLords, had had their rents cut by huge amounts (though cloaked) so they could trade it through.

A neighbour of mine was losing 90k pa dead but had a huge inheritance so propped up the business whilst he tried to let it...which he hasn't been able to do....LL won't take surrender so he will wait until lease ends next year and close.


I am now retailing in a totally different way, as the thread has discussed and it has been eye opening....but if I look back to how we have adapted to all sorts of things over the years, it is the right way forward for now.

There are so many reasons for the general drop in trade but the main one is there must be millions upon millions more sq foot of retail space than there was a decade ago. Masses more choice and places to spend incl the rise of online.

I can't remember when I stopped going to different places for shampoo, cleansers, reams of paper, new broom etc. I buy those types of things in Asda....but not much food.
I don't even have to go into town to go to the bank, People pay invoices by transfer, I can pay bills online etc all things that take footfall out of a town.

fc123

lemonjelly wrote: »

I agree with the above, but would add there used to be something more to "shopping" than there is now.

Shopping used to be a communal activity. Look at old B&W photo's of town centres, marketplaces and the like. There was atmosphere. Shopping/trade would be based around the village green, or the town square, or the main street. As well as shopping, you'd catch up with neighbours, local characters, the rest of the family, local news etc.

Now, traders are spread and disparate, so you're unlikely to bump into anyone (or have the time!). Alternatively, the same applies to the "one size fits all" superstore.

Thing is, shopping was a public, social practise. Now it is private - in these supermalls, or online, or whatever. Markets used to set up in public spaces, where most of the local populace could go. Now, it is all private land, no public space. And it doesn't usually feel a comfortable place to browse, relax, speculate over potential purchases.

And it is so blooming rare to see another person smiling!

I particularly like this comment too...

Oooh why?

Areas, habits, ways of doing things change all the time.

Mostly, we don't notice day to day...but like aging.....when you look at an old photo you see the change, but if one visits an area that you haven't been to for 2 decades, you will usually see a lot of change.

I live a very different way of life to my grandmother but we have the same skills, 2 kids and a hubby. The difference in my way of life isn't to do with me as an individual, but how life is today for an average lower/middle class female.

The independent retailers are all alive and well, trading profitably (or not) they just aren't on a trad High St any longer. They are on EBay or other such retail sites. There are zillions on EBay both niche and mainstream.


As with house prices, i takes time for the changes to impact rental levels. Those LL in Glass Towers managing pension funds are in for a tough time.

Most seem to be relying on outdated lease laws to protect their income. They will change at some point. Philip Green is leading the way on that one.

Does anyone recall Glen The Baker posting here a few months back? I think he was in Derby and said he'd just had his worst Saturday for 20 yrs....the footfall from his end of town had reduced to M + S and others relocating to new centre.

lemonjelly

fc123 wrote: »

Oooh why?

Areas, habits, ways of doing things change all the time.

Mostly, we don't notice day to day...but like aging.....when you look at an old photo you see the change, but if one visits an area that you haven't been to for 2 decades, you will usually see a lot of change.

I live a very different way of life to my grandmother but we have the same skills, 2 kids and a hubby. The difference in my way of life isn't to do with me as an individual, but how life is today for an average lower/middle class female.

The independent retailers are all alive and well, trading profitably (or not) they just aren't on a trad High St any longer. They are on EBay or other such retail sites. There are zillions on EBay both niche and mainstream.


As with house prices, i takes time for the changes to impact rental levels. Those LL in Glass Towers managing pension funds are in for a tough time.

Most seem to be relying on outdated lease laws to protect their income. They will change at some point. Philip Green is leading the way on that one.

Does anyone recall Glen The Baker posting here a few months back? I think he was in Derby and said he'd just had his worst Saturday for 20 yrs....the footfall from his end of town had reduced to M + S and others relocating to new centre.

I liked your original statement because I felt a resonance with what it said & meant. I enjoy the insight garnered from the vast majority of your posts to be honest FC123, as I feel they're well written, and I always learn something from them.

I completely agree with your comments above too. As an analogy, as a child you're not necessarily aware of yourself growing. But relatives who you see intermittently always comment "OOOHH, how you've grown!" You're not aware of the many and multitudinous numbers of changes occurring every day in yourself. The same goes for the environment.

I went to university in my home town. After a 10 year gap, I bumped into a friend who asked about a particular restaurant. I said I'd check & see if it was still open (it was). They asked if anything else had changed, and I said "not really". However on my walk to the aforesaid restaurant, looking around with fresh eyes, I realised hundreds of things had changed/opened/been knocked down etc.

I also think that commercial LL's may be in for a difficult couple of years. In many bizarre ways, they've slowly been cutting of themselves from their market, making life worse for so many traders over the years. The level of dissatisfaction about commercial LL's appears to have been gradually growing in recent years.

Glad to hear that some indies are doing well.

I do think we are losing "something" with our current methods of engaging as consumers though...

Snooze

Thrugelmir_(in_reply_to_Really2) wrote:

Sounds like you are one of the minority sensible souls to inhabit the UK. :beer:

Just don't let him near a new housing estate at the peak of a housing boom!

R

kriss_boy

fc123 wrote: »

It's quite common for under 25's to post on BR board with 30k of debt (incl car finance) but with very average incomes.

Im 25 and I know of a dozen people with debts of between 10-25K. A cousin of a friend of mine is in his 20s and in the process of becoming bankcrupt for the second time. I reckon he should be jailed for that.

Many of my friends pay virtually as much on their cars finance per month as I do a mortgage. Yet they complain they cannot afford to move out.

Its crazy.

We just like in a culture of 'I want that- why cant I have it'. Many people my age refuse to save for things and suggest its practically a matter of equality that they too should be able to afford the same as others that are better off financially.

I know little about the economy and the complexities of this recession but its clear that in recent years the attitudes of young people towards spending have contributed largely to our economic demise.