How should poverty be defined given that it drives the benefits culture

MrsE_2

lemonjelly wrote: »

Agree with this here.

For many, that is above take home pay...:eek:

Above ONE takehome pay.

How many couples/families can (without benefits) manage on one takehome pay?

PasturesNew

I've spent many a month/year living on £50-£100 after housing/basic bills are covered. That to me is quite normal and has become a way of life now, now I feel guilty for spending any money. I never realised how much other people had until I came to MSE. I am often gobsmacked by people's incomes (even on this thread), I had no idea so many people lived such wealthy lives.

So, maybe it is relative, but relative to what you find out the others have

I did find though that those that have don't know what it's like for those that don't have. When I did try to go out/join in with people, I had nothing in common with them because conversation seems to be about holidays and Sky TV and things they bought ... and if people aren't your friends then you're having to socialise in places that cost money to go to (e.g. pubs), so I became exceedingly socially isolated. Even seemingly free activities become out of your reach because there is a cost of participation, even if you're walking you have to think "if I wear these shoes out I have no others" - and if you go out and all you can see are people with friends spending money and having a good time then it's again an isolating experience.

MrsE_2

PasturesNew wrote: »

I've spent many a month/year living on £50-£100 after housing/basic bills are covered. That to me is quite normal and has become a way of life now, now I feel guilty for spending any money. I never realised how much other people had until I came to MSE. I am often gobsmacked by people's incomes (even on this thread), I had no idea so many people lived such wealthy lives.

But those figures quoted above don't include basic bills, just housing.

Thats what I said, start taking the bills out & their won't be much left.

Insurance
Gas
Electric
Water
Phone
Internet
TV licence
TV package
Motoring costs
Food
Clothing

Credit cards
Loans
HP
Catalogues

Less important but all ads up
Entertainment (cinema, magazines, anything like this)
Window cleaner

I'm sure there are loads more.

PasturesNew

MrsE wrote: »

But those figures quoted above don't include basic bills, just housing.

Thats what I said, start taking the bills out & their won't be much left.

Insurance
Gas
Electric
Water
Phone
Internet
TV licence
TV package
Motoring costs
Food
Clothing

Credit cards
Loans
HP
Catalogues

Less important but all ads up
Entertainment (cinema, magazines, anything like this)
Window cleaner

I'm sure there are loads more.

Basic bills to me mean basic. Electricity/gas/water/phoneline/cheapest broadband/compulsory insurance (e.g. buildings insurance).

It certainly wouldn't include TV package, Clothing, Credit cards, Loans, HP, Catalogues, Entertainment (cinema, magazines, anything like this),
Window cleaner

I don't have most of those things even now.

I have never even SEEN Sky TV, I have only seen an iPod and an XBox because I went into a shop when I moved to a town JUST to see them.

SingleSue

I can relate to that Pastures...and not just in recent times but also when me and hubby were together and we had joint incomes.

Our joint income was a lot less than my colleagues joint incomes yet they were always moaning about not having enough money and that they needed to work to buy the normal things. I could never get my head around it as my earnings paid for the little luxury extras instead of the normal things and we could survive quite happily on just my hubbies salary.

Then I found out they were spending £5k plus on holidays each year, 10k for new kitchens (which they seemed to renew every 3 years) and goodness knows how much for sofa suites (replaced every 18 months)....when we were paying less than £500 for holidays each year, my kitchen cost £50 second hand from the paper (in 1998, not replaced since) and my sofa suite £299 from Argos (my one and only new sofa suite since we got together in 1987!)

So it is all relative really...you can be earning a fair whack but still find yourself short because of credit payments etc or you can be earning a smaller amount and maybe officially (according to that report) on or below the poverty line but be quite comfortable.

I don't see myself as being in poverty as my children have food to eat, clothes to wear (even if they are second hand or sale items) and warmth.

The rest costs nothing (teaching them about life, loving them and giving them a good upbringing).

Pobby

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

We live on £900 pcm. (Total - Couple - early retired - no mortgage or rent).

No way is this poverty.

Maybe to some people it would be, because we have ONE ten-year-old car, two really old PAYG mobiles that simply do calls and texts, and no Sky TV.

But not having Sky TV or an all-singing and dancing phone or a brand new car does not mean you are in poverty. We have a roof over our heads, enough to eat and drink, pay our way and socialise sometimes. What's so poverty stricken about that?

It's quite insulting actually to say we are in poverty.

As for the little girl who 'can't go to the fridge any time'. well so what so long as she has enough to eat?

I know that you live in Spain and maybe a few years ago I would have said that £900 per month was more than adequate. From what I hear ( and saw last year ) prices have been rising a lot. Council tax is a lot lower but food and fuel has jumped up a lot. Mind you, smoke the local tobacco and drink the local wine at under 50 pence a litre and you are doing OK.:D

olly300

PasturesNew wrote: »

Basic bills to me mean basic. Electricity/gas/water/ compulsory insurance (e.g. buildings insurance).

These are essentials.

PasturesNew wrote: »

Credit cards, Loans, HP, Catalogues,

These you need to pay to stop you getting in worse financial mess and you don't know whether an essential item was brought on one of these i.e. school uniform, work clothes, winter coat, shoes.

PasturesNew wrote: »

Clothing,

This is an essential particularly if you work or go to school.

PasturesNew wrote: »

It certainly wouldn't include TV package, Clothing, Entertainment (cinema, magazines, anything like this),

While these are not essentials they stop you from being socially isolated particularly if you a school child.

I remember being at primary school and saying I had done certain things or been to certain places i.e. I said I hadn't been on holiday with my family and hadn't been to a pantomime, and the teachers where horrified.

I had actually been on holiday but not with my family because there were too many off us and my parents where not into camping or caravaning, so it was a case a few of us going at a time or going with other relations or long known family friends.

Oh and as a youngest child my parents had had enough of doing certain things, which I didn't have a problem pointing out to them. Luckily I had siblings who are old enough to be my parents who hadn't.

PasturesNew wrote: »

phoneline/cheapest broadband/

These are to stop you being socially isolated.

I remember reading something that stated even though many don't see the TV, phones or broadband as an essential item if you are ever in position where you are looking for a job, ever need to work from home or a school child if you don't have access to them then you suffer.

PasturesNew wrote: »

Window cleaner

This is and using cleaners on a very regular basis is extravagant to many people.

Even people I know who can afford these things with ease don't use them.

PasturesNew wrote: »

I have never even SEEN Sky TV, I have only seen an iPod and an XBox because I went into a shop when I moved to a town JUST to see them.

Unless you like sports or chat shows then you are not missing very much as terrestial TV is better. And if you can afford to rent or know people who have DVDs you can get a lot of TV series on DVD.

You can get cheaper MP3 players than an IPod. You can in fact get an MP3 player for under £10 from Argos. The only thing is the batteries will cost.

Unless you are a kid or like playing computer games then you are not missing out having an XBox. I've never had my own games console.

MrsE_2

olly300 wrote: »

This is and using cleaners on a very regular basis is extravagant to many people.

Even people I know who can afford these things with ease don't use them.

My windows are not the sort you can clean from inside.

So its a ladder to reach the upper outside windows & I don't feel this is safe (or I'm a bit scared) to do & my DH works long hours & doesn't have the time (plus he has a bad back & is self employed - if he injured himself or his back it would cost a lot more than £20).

Plus I work full time & lead a busy life & it takes the window cleaner 45 mins to do what it would take me the best part of half the day (& can't do outside upstairs).

So to me its not an extravagance.

PasturesNew

I think many people assume that everybody has the things they don't. Then they want more and demand it as their right ... then they end up with a lifest yle that they think is their right, that's actually better than most other people ... but they still say they're badly off.

I was having a conversation with somebody the other day with no credit cards, no debt, just a mortgage of nearly £80k - and an income of about £2700/month. They wanted to get rid of their mortgage and I said "just put £300/month extra towards it" and they actually wailed "I don't have the money, I don't earn much". I know their whole life of mortgage/bills/car running costs/eating good food could be achieved on £1000, leaving them £1700/month to themselves to spend on whatever they wanted ... and it was all going on waste and fripperies. Food that was thrown out, bottles of wine, hobbies. They couldn't see that they had £1700/month to choose what they did ... as they were already spending that they couldn't see where this £300 "extra" I suggested they paid would come from.

It was a classic case of somebody's lifestyle expanding into their income.

People who have more than they need will justify anything as needed and then will say they have no money.

To me, as a single person, poverty is living alone and having less than £75/week for everything after housing costs (mort/rent/CT) and the cost of getting to/from work. Being in work is quite expensive because of needing clothes for work and the cost of travel to/from the workplace.

I had one job that paid £22k, which sounds OK, except the travel to work cost was £400/month and my mortgage was £525. Takehome at the time was £1325, so I then paid out £925 of that, leaving £400/month, or £93/week. Again, it sounds fine, until the boiler broke and I was quoted £200. I spent the whole winter without hot water/heating because I couldn't afford to fix it ... then another guy who I'd called out to fix another problem quoted me just £40 and I had it fixed.

At the time I was struggling, yet I was put under a lot of pressure to go to the firm's Xmas do and I said no as I couldn't afford it... and people's attitude was that I was being awkward in not going. They couldn't see that there was no joy to drive 120 mile on a round trip, to sit and eat a meal costing me £20 and not drink more than 2 cokes all night - and I didn't have an outfit because I was not used to socialising and couldn't have just worn my work clothes.... while they were sat there knocking back drinks with their partner then staying at the hotel for the night. As I didn't go, I was then excluded from the chats they all had about the night and the photos going round, I was isolated because I couldn't afford to go - and at the same time made to feel like poo because I said I couldn't afford it and they refused to believe people couldn't.

chopperharris

essentials are food , shelter ,basic clothing , heating and electricity.

Credit is an essential when its used to pay bills , or to buy an emergency essential item like a fridge.

Sorry but to say the internet is an essential item is a joke , what did we do before the internet?

Same goes for mobile phones , a payg phone is all anyone needs if they absolutley NEED one.Even then you only use it infrequently to keep it active.

I grew up in a poverty (yet working) single parent family , every penny counted , credit was used and not abused.No sky tv , no broadband.There was no car in the driveway as there is no driveway in a council flat , school was 2 miles away I was never driven once.I never had a holiday outside the uk until I was in my 30's , and rarely had one before that.

Stop posing , showing off new cars , home improvements and holiday homes is useless.Your going to be paying for the credit crunch for the next 10 years anyway so start frugal living now to have a decent life after it....Gordon brown never made the credit crunch it was everyone else that had credit cards , loans and mortgages , so its biblically just that the same will be paying for it and the ones that didnt being punished anyway.