Can he claim constructive dismissal?

kateab

I've had fallings out with some pretty scary directors in my time and still, not one has sworn at me. And whilst I'm an IT person, I've worked in different business sectors and definitely one that is not known for great employee relations, shall we say?

As I said before, directors are role models. And there's swearing, and being sworn at. I've worked in teams that are pretty interesting in terms of language used daily which sailed over my head most of the time, but being sworn at suggests words being flung around aggressively.

I accept we can't know the situation or the culture of your company, nor the individuals concerned but it does sound like your director needs to be big enough to make an unreserved apology for his actions. And if there is no reason not to take this employee back, and that is what he wants, it seems like the way that would be most beneficial to your company - atm, you have to recruit a replacement for him and train them, all of which costs money and time, and you potentially have the hassle of appointing solicitors and going to tribunal which won't be cheap either.

kateab

Zazen999

I find it fascinating that this query is being asked on here. Surely the person dealing with this has had the proper training to deal with it properly?

crankydame

What amazes me is many people who have read and responded to this sound like they never make mistakes. I did not expect everyone to say our Director was a hero as he and the rest of us know he made a mistake and he did NOT intend the comment in the way it was taken. The company has only 6 employees. Companies of this size cannot afford to employ specialist HR managers - hence why we are looking for help to deal with this properly. The employee used exactly the same language on a regular basis - which is why it was such a surprise for them to take the comment in this way. Also the Director (that is just a job title he is a normal person with faults just like the rest of you!) did try to apologies on the day of the incident but the employee was having none of it. Are management never allowed to make mistakes? It would seem not. The very same employee has made many many mistakes which were overlooked because they were never deemed serious enough to cause a fuss and result in very bad feeling which is what would have have happened in such a small business. I suppose this incident is a warning to all small business owners - be very careful what you say and NEVER employ a person who was a friend first because you just cannot have both a proper friendship and remain slightly detached as it seems a boss must be. Oh and go on a course which teaches you how to NEVER MAKE MISTAKES! However, as is required of us a formal grievance hearing has been arranged so we shall see where we go from here but I would lay money on it that a big fat cheque is what is required - seldom do employers come out of ET on top and I have a very strong feeling that this is where it's heading. Deep joy -not.

Zazen999

crankydame wrote: »

What amazes me is many people who have read and responded to this sound like they never make mistakes. I did not expect everyone to say our Director was a hero as he and the rest of us know he made a mistake and he did NOT intend the comment in the way it was taken. The company has only 6 employees. Companies of this size cannot afford to employ specialist HR managers - hence why we are looking for help to deal with this properly. The employee used exactly the same language on a regular basis - which is why it was such a surprise for them to take the comment in this way. Also the Director (that is just a job title he is a normal person with faults just like the rest of you!) did try to apologies on the day of the incident but the employee was having none of it. Are management never allowed to make mistakes? It would seem not. The very same employee has made many many mistakes which were overlooked because they were never deemed serious enough to cause a fuss and result in very bad feeling which is what would have have happened in such a small business. I suppose this incident is a warning to all small business owners - be very careful what you say and NEVER employ a person who was a friend first because you just cannot have both a proper friendship and remain slightly detached as it seems a boss must be. Oh and go on a course which teaches you how to NEVER MAKE MISTAKES! However, as is required of us a formal grievance hearing has been arranged so we shall see where we go from here but I would lay money on it that a big fat cheque is what is required - seldom do employers come out of ET on top and I have a very strong feeling that this is where it's heading. Deep joy -not.

No, it is saying get policies that are within the law, and use them.

Employers do not come out on top of ETs because prior to the ET, it is usually the case that the employer has not followed a lawful procedure. Ergo, they are usually won by the employee.

Mudd14

Zazen999 wrote: »

Employers do not come out on top of ETs because prior to the ET, it is usually the case that the employer has not followed a lawful procedure. Ergo, they are usually won by the employee.

In some cases I believe this but on the other hand you have the following;

Employer does treat the employee correctly and follows the correct procedures. Stil the employee takes the employer to tribunal.

Now the employer will have to incure a lot of costs just to defend themselves. ACAS in my opinion are alll for the employee and a tribunal is an opinion of three people.

It normally works out for the employee far cheaper to settle which is obviously not the best morale one, but def the most financially sensible!

If I could shape things up employees and employers would have to show clear consultation to show they have tried to resolve problems before it even got to filling tribunal papers, if no proof it would be thrown out immediatly

Zazen999

Mudd14 wrote: »

In some cases I believe this but on the other hand you have the following;

Employer does treat the employee correctly and follows the correct procedures. Stil the employee takes the employer to tribunal.

Now the employer will have to incure a lot of costs just to defend themselves. ACAS in my opinion are alll for the employee and a tribunal is an opinion of three people.

It normally works out for the employee far cheaper to settle which is obviously not the best morale one, but def the most financially sensible!

If I could shape things up employees and employers would have to show clear consultation to show they have tried to resolve problems before it even got to filling tribunal papers, if no proof it would be thrown out immediatly

That's why I said usually.

Horace

One wonders why someone who is claiming to work for the company and from the sound of it has the HR role is asking on an forum about employment law and procedures.

Yes it is disgraceful that the director shouted at another person who quit but then it is equally disgraceful for that same company not to comply with employment law and have no proper procedures in place. To say that the business only has 6 employees and cannot afford an HR specialist is nonsense - it is the HR person's (whomever it may be) job to know and keep abreast of employment law and the need for proper grievance and disciplinary procedures. Ignorance is no excuse in law and I agree with Zazen, I hope the employee takes you to the cleaners.

I don't employ anyone as yet in my small business but I already have proper procedures in place for such time as I do take on staff and I keep myself up to date with current liegislation - as a responsible business owner its my job to know these things just as its my job to pay the tax man the right amount of tax.

freeoffers

This should be a warning to all employers. dont matter if you employ a friend, they are still an employee.
Ive worked with some right !!!!! in my time but none has ever sworn at me and i've never sworn at them. i understand the nature of the relationship but the bottom line is you do get problems when teh employee/employer lines become blurred like that.

crankydame

Horace wrote: »

I don't employ anyone as yet in my small business but I already have proper procedures in place for such time as I do take on staff and I keep myself up to date with current liegislation - as a responsible business owner its my job to know these things just as its my job to pay the tax man the right amount of tax.

LOL! Good for you! but when you DO employ staff you will find out that running your business becomes a little more complicated because all of a sudden you will be
1 Production manager
2 Sale Manager
3 HR Manager
4 Financial Manager
5 H & S Manager
You have absolutely no idea what is coming I can guarantee that!!!!
I don't think you will be quite so self righteous after a few years - good luck with your small business - you will need it by the sounds of things. I know cos I've done it - so I am a few steps ahead of you in terms of experience = it all SOUNDS very easy but one mistake and BANG down you go boyo! but then you're obviously perfect so it won't apply to you now will it!