Previous Tenants' Stuff

Jim_B_3

Piggles12345 wrote: »

I posted my original message to ask what would have happened if I'd have said 'there is no bin'. I'm sorry that so many of you find this simple question so offensive and believe it to prove that I am what is wrong with the UK today .

Piggles, you hypothetically suggested carrying out a crime (you did not, of course, carry out a crime and I have no intention of launching any kind of personal attack - I think my posts thus far have been impersonal and dealt with abstract fact only). What did you think people would say? What surprises me is how many people suggested returning it just for an easy life; makes me think that people act in accordance with the law because they just don't want all the hassle of dealing with the police and having to spend time in gaol.

charliee_3

Jim_B wrote: »

Please put aside your ideas of what is reasonable. Acting reasonably does carry weight in court, but there is no denying that the OP knows these items belong to someone else, and that person wishes to collect them.

Claiming that the items are not in the house in an attempt to permanently deprive the owner of them is theft.

Ideally, yes, the owner would not have left them there. The OP would have requested them moved upon moving in. The Landlord would have made arrangements. The landlord's agent would have done something. None of this happened and it's irrelevant.

If the OP was suggesting they might be owed something for having taken care of them, or for the inconvenience, and was not attempting to outright steal the items, that would be different. As it is, the OP is suggesting they lie in order to permanently deprive the owner of the items. Theft.

for heavens sake... they dont own them anymore.. they can ask for them and as a reasonable person the OP is going to give them back, but they have no RIGHT to expect them back whether they are still in the house or not. if you dispose of something by abandoning it then you dont own it.. I really dont think it is unusual when you move into a furnished rented house for there to be the odd bit and bob that has been left by the previous occupants, whether the LL just takes ownership of them and adds them to the inventory, or if they, as another poster said, leave them for the use or disposal of the new occupants, its pretty normal. If, when you move in, the LL says - 'that XYZ was left by the previous occupants and they will be back in 2 weeks to collect it', you wouldnt use it, you would get your own one, but now the OP has the hassle of buying a new bin and he has had all and sundry calling him scum just for asking a question.. maybe if he had given details of what the items were in the OP then people may have felt differently.

i have been in this situation so have lived it in real life...

when we left one furnished rented house we left a nearly new toaster and kettle.. i would never have dreamt of asking for the back after we'd gone and if the new people kept them, used them, threw them away, sold them,danced round them whilst they burnt, or if the LL added them to the inventory i neither knew nor cared. in another rented furnished place there were various pots and pans left by previous occupants, (not on the inventory) there was one pan i really liked, it wasnt special, i just liked cooking in it, so i kept it when i moved out, but i left other stuff, so it balances out..

i know in the house i used to live in (houseshare where i still know people) I left my juicer as we ran out room in the car. If i go back to visit i am contemplating asking if i can have it, but ONLY if they are not using it and dont intend to use it as when i left it i didnt ask them to take care of it, so i relinquished all actual right to it when i left it. if its been chucked, or sold or whatever.. its ok...

If you move into a furnished rented house and there are items there you dont want you ask the LL to get remove them, whether they are on the inventory or not, but if you can use them, you do as you dont need to buy your own then...that's what happens in the real world in my experience anyway...

Things arent always black and white and i'm still on his side

GrammarGirl

I have to disagree with all the 'theft' comments in here... I moved into a property that was absolutely filled with previous tenants' belongings. It took up all the storage space, was dumped in bedrooms and behind the sofas - it was everywhere. We had no inventory done at the beginning of the tenancy (I was naive in those days, would never stand for that now!) and had no idea what to do with all the stuff. After a few months I ended up chucking most of it away. At the end of our tenancy, the landlady wanted us to clear everything out (there was a basement full of old rubbish too) which we refused. She fought tooth and nail and it was a horrible time, but eventually we won as she had no inventory, and she cleared it herself.

I would be very careful in this situation. Yes, the tenants have a right to their possessions, but when they encroach on the enjoyment of someone else's home and could cause a problem with the return of the deposit, I wouldn't hesitate to throw it all away after a couple of months.

Piggles12345

charliee wrote: »

OMG... a bin.. seriously.. i think i'd have told them to eff off over a bin..
i think a lot of people just had a knee jerk response that you were trying to keep something on the sly... or maybe you really are what is wrong with britain?? lol

unless its a really nice bin that you couldnt possibly replace i'd let them collect it as i said, but dont you dare clean it... call me vindictive, but i'd be not very careful scraping my leftovers into it till they come, get a nice layer of filth on it...??!!

YES! A BIN!

I already have a bin from my previous property, so I haven't actually been using the previous tenants bin! Although it is a very nice silver and black metal jobbie, compared with my plastic £7 from Woolies one!

I haven't cleaned it and I have left it out in the garden for the old tenant to collect as I'm not at home today.

I agree with you Charliee, I left a few items at a property I moved out of about a year ago because there was no more room in the van. I would never ever dream of going back a couple of weeks later and saying to the new tenant, 'can I have my lamps, TV table, rug and toaster back please'. I didn't take them because I couldn't, hence I abandoned them and gave up any claim over them that I had. Incidentally, I did call the letting agent and told them my intentions- that I had left these items and that the new tenants were welcome to them, or I would pay for them to be removed if that was necessary.

Also, just to clarify, the house isn't furnished. Its an unfurnished property and no items of furniture at all were specified on the inventory.

Jim_B_3

I'm not expressing personal opinion here. The items clearly belong to the previous tenant.

if you dispose of something by abandoning it then you dont own it

I already covered this. Two weeks is not enough time to consider them reasonably abandoned. This is reinforced by the previous tenant asking to reclaim them. There is precedent on this. All the bleating about how you left stuff behind in a house once and how it's very common doesn't change anything.

charliee wrote: »

Things arent always black and white and i'm still on his side

In this case, they are black and white. If it had been a long period of time such that they could be considered reasonably abandoned, that would be different. If the outgoing tenant had said that they were abandoned, that would be different.

I'm sick of having to say the same thing over and over, here's an excerpt from the simple version of the relevant laws:

Uncollected or abandoned goods

A person may leave goods which belong to them with someone else and appear to have abandoned them. Examples include:-

• scaffolding or other equipment left by builders on site
• books or records left with friends
• uncollected goods left at a shop for repair
• uncollected goods left by a tenant in a landlord’s property
• goods ordered and received but then rejected or not paid for
• and the seller has failed to collect them
• unsolicited goods sent through the post.

If you have uncollected or abandoned goods, you have a duty to look after them, but cannot use them or treat them as your own. You will be liable for any damage caused to the goods while they are in your care.

If you are in possession of another person’s goods you can sell them if they remain uncollected, as long as:-

• the original owner is responsible for collecting the goods. The goods cannot be sold if it is the finder’s responsibility to return them; and
• any money received from the sale is returned to the original owner or, if this is not possible, kept on account for them. The owner only loses their right to the money after six years; and
• the finder follows the correct procedure.

The finder must give the owner of the goods, either personally or by post, a first written notice stating:-

• that the owner is responsible for collecting the goods
• the details of the goods and where they are
• the finder’s name and address
• how much money is owed, if any, for the goods when the notice is sent, for example, the repair cost or reasonable storage charges.

What happens if the owner does not collect the goods

If the owner does not collect the goods by the date given in the notice, and the finder is sure that the goods belong to the person who has been sent the notices, then they may keep the goods or sell them. If the goods are sold they will then legally belong to the purchaser.

GDB2222

Jim_B wrote: »

I already covered this. Two weeks is not enough time to consider them reasonably abandoned.

I had tenants who reclaimed "their" picnic table after ten years. They simply walked into the garden and took it when I was not there. They must have been stewing for ten years over leaving it behind. Crazy!

franklee

Jim B, I think you'll find that the onus is on the landlord to deal with the abandoned goods in the ways you quote, not the incoming tenant. The incoming tenant is PAYING the landlord for the use of the property and thus should not have to store swathes of the old tenant's abandoned goods. Neither can the new tenant write to the old tenant as he will have no contact details, again that is the landlord's responsibility. Have a peek round landlordzone, they do recommend the landlord take those steps to determine if the goods are abandoned, not the incoming tenant.

Jim_B_3

franklee wrote: »

Jim B, I think you'll find that the onus is on the landlord to deal with the abandoned goods in the ways you quote, not the incoming tenant. The incoming tenant is PAYING the landlord for the use of the property and thus should not have to store swathes of the old tenant's abandoned goods.

It may well be - my primary argument is that simply taking them is theft. Again, I see the word "should". "Should" is not the same as legal.

Digression away from key point; I would be willing to bet that the tenant does in fact share at least some the responsibility as the goods are inside their home. The same law applies to those goods from the previous tenant as if the goods were owned by a friend of the current tenant who left it there whilst they went away for a while, and nobody could argue that the landlord would be responsible for that stuff. I agree that the goods were left in the home (i.e. empty property) of the landlord and so the landlord was originally responsible for caring for them; now that they are left in the home of the tenant, I think that the duty of care could well transfer.

GDB2222

Jim_B wrote: »

It may well be - my primary argument is that simply taking them is theft. Again, I see the word "should". "Should" is not the same as legal.

Digression away from key point; I would be willing to bet that the tenant does in fact share at least some the responsibility as the goods are inside their home. The same law applies to those goods from the previous tenant as if the goods were owned by a friend of the current tenant who left it there whilst they went away for a while, and nobody could argue that the landlord would be responsible for that stuff. I agree that the goods were left in the home (i.e. empty property) of the landlord and so the landlord was originally responsible for caring for them; now that they are left in the home of the tenant, I think that the duty of care could well transfer.

Perhaps you should check on the law of bailment, so that you can advise us all what the law in this particular case is, rather than working from "first principles".

Piggles12345

Jim_B wrote: »

The same law applies to those goods from the previous tenant as if the goods were owned by a friend of the current tenant who left it there whilst they went away for a while, and nobody could argue that the landlord would be responsible for that stuff..

Not really because I would have given my permission for my hypothetical friend to leave their stuff in my house and I would know what my friend's intentions are (i.e. are they going to pick them up or leave them in my house forever).

At present, I have no indication of whether the old tenant wants their stuff back.

How long am I meant to hold on to it until I assume it is abandoned?
Do I hold on to the broken items as well?
The old tenant also left bin bags full of garden waste in the shed, do I hold on to them as well in case the old tenant wants them?

The tenant has picked up the bin that they left at my property today, but I have no indication as to whether they want the other stuff back.

What if I get rid of the other stuff after, say, a month and the old tenant rings the letting agent saying that they want the stuff back. Then where do I stand?