The reason for my pessimistic thoughts

purch

I cannot see how this country can survive when people like me, earning average wage can not afford to get on in life without relying on another person to also work full time, and then rely on them to continue working full time so we can live

That is the problem that the whole 'Western' developed world faces. Standards of living have increased so much over the last 50 years, that people on 'average' earnings find it harder and harder to to live the life they expect they should be able to live.

That's not meant as a 'dig' at anyone, or an insult in any way, but it is a fact that loads of things that would have been considered luxuries 15-20 years ago are now considered everyday items.

When an average 'family' cannot remotely consider being able to purchase an average home, them things have clearly got out of kilter.

dgl1001

Graham

Interesting post. My parents were in the same situation. Only things are different nowadays because their is less housing available to meet the ever growing needs of the population - i.e. there is a shortage suitable housing to cater for every one - simple. The law of supply and demand still follows in the housing market

Pennywise

People in the North are just as badly hit as the average wage is a lot less in some regions than the national average, especially in the private sector.

In our region, the average wage last time I looked was only around £18,000 compared to mid 20's nationally and high 20's for the South. That's quite a difference.

Properties in the North may "look" cheap, but in fact they are very expensive for what they are and aren't "affordable", hence the large number of repossessions and negative equity cases in the Northern towns that had seen such an increase in prices.

You have to remember that whilst there is national pay bargaining for a lot of the public sector, so that a teacher in say Devon would expect to earn similar to a teacher in Lancashire, that isn't true for the private sector, where we still have full time staff earning little more than minimum wage, on say £12k per year for relatively good jobs that would command twice that wage in the South.

Conrad

Graham, thank's for this thread and sharing your personal !!!!!!.

Now I'm being absolutely honest here, but I can understand if you don't beleive me, but I swear to you this is true.

My second down brother is a lorry driver. His wife has never worked. They have a 9 and a 4 year old. No help from anyone.
In 1991 when he was single he was repossessed btw.
A few years back after marrying and with first child born he bought a 3 bed house. They have no foreign holls, no take aways, cheap clothes etc.
BUT THEY DID IT AND THEY ARE PRETTY HAPPY.
Since last year he now does self employed landscaping in the summer too.

Graham, my long argument with ultra pessimists, has often focused on thier psychology, rather than economic stats, and many times I get told my points are irrelevant, but I strongly believe the heart of the argument is the psychology pessimists come with.

A classic uber pessimist simply doesn't get the Human race.

They talk of never buying until you are totaly secure. Welkl the take home message is 99% people do not think this way or none of us would ever do much and we would still be living in the dark ages.

I read a book which looked at how differing types process inputs. Pessimists have a fundamental fear of loss of money tickets. The rest of the population have a degree of this fear but are able to simply accept some risk and roll with life.

Furthermore, you need to battle your instinct, which I share, to be discontent. I work all the hours too. I worry. My wife does not work - so I'm always at a disadvantage to most of the people I know - having to work really hard. Unlike lots of pepes I know I've never had an inheritance or help.

I have a choice - wallow in self pity - which I do from time to time, or just blody get on with it and think how much luckier I am than many in the world.

Dont know if this makes any sense mate.:p

Really2

SandC wrote: »

Wasn't that more to do with men earning comparatively a lot more back then than they do now?

Exactly wage equality did not make the wage book of companies double it just meant wages had to get equal so over time in real terms mens have erroded and womens have got better.
This is good for equal rights (i belive won should earn the same as as a man for the same job) but means 2 people now only earn just over what a single person back then in "real terms"

lostinrates

purch wrote: »

When an average 'family' cannot remotely consider being able to purchase an average home, them things have clearly got out of kilter.

I agree with that. we have more costs (my parents had niether mobile phones nor internet). Unusally perhaps we are a one car couple, but then public transport is I believe proportionately more expensive, especially as commuters are forced to commute over longer distances. I would probably not keep a mobile phone (£8 a month) if we had a permant address. My mobile phone is the only thing thats remained the same for me with contact details for the last 12 years!

ALIBOBSY

OH and I are in our late 30's and with 3 kids so I am currently at home with them and we live in a 3 bed semi on his (average)wage alone.
BUT we get some tax credits and child benefit, we live in the north west in a semi rural area on the edge of a small town and bought in 1999 so pretty low mortgage. Plus I budget and cook alot from home and have the time to shop around for food etc. Also growing our own veg (small scale last year, but alot more this year). I am time rich and cash poor so using that time to be "old style" as per boards on here as well as doing daily clicks using quidco et al all adds up.
So as the house prices fall back to realistic levels I think the situation your mum and dad lived in IS still possible, but maybe not across the whole country.

ali x

SandC

dgl1001 wrote: »

Graham

Interesting post. My parents were in the same situation. Only things are different nowadays because their is less housing available to meet the ever growing needs of the population - i.e. there is a shortage suitable housing to cater for every one - simple. The law of supply and demand still follows in the housing market

I remember back in the 80s when council housing was available for working couples.

We need these back, not this so called 'affordable housing' and sharing of the costs - there must be thousands of people who don't really want to buy a house but the prospect of having to shell out private rent when they are retired means they have little alternative. To be given the opportunity of a house that suits the family needs with a fair rent where they can stay for many years and decorate as they see fit is surely one that would appeal?

Right to buy simply should not have happened without replacing every single property that was sold. But the whole process would not have allowed for this to happen as they were sold at such low prices there was never going to be enough revenue from it to build new ones of the same quality.

Sucks.

Lotus-eater

ALIBOBSY wrote: »

OH and I are in our late 30's and with 3 kids so I am currently at home with them and we live in a 3 bed semi on his (average)wage alone.
BUT we get some tax credits and child benefit, we live in the north west in a semi rural area on the edge of a small town and bought in 1999 so pretty low mortgage. Plus I budget and cook alot from home and have the time to shop around for food etc. Also growing our own veg (small scale last year, but alot more this year). I am time rich and cash poor so using that time to be "old style" as per boards on here as well as doing daily clicks using quidco et al all adds up.
So as the house prices fall back to realistic levels I think the situation your mum and dad lived in IS still possible, but maybe not across the whole country.

ali x

There was that woman who wrote a book about doing that, leaving work and finding out she was better off staying at home because it meant she had time to save money. Can't remember the name now. Tightwad or something.

Obviously I can't comment on the way Graham lives, but you are right that we used to live differently, I can remember my Dads pants being made into dusters , how many do that nowadays? How many would do it?
Not many and that's part of the problem. I keep banging on about it, but look at the debt so many young people are in and it's all to buy stuff they think they need.

socrates

The reasons for the change from your/my parents time - is that the minimum requirements to be normal are so much higher.

Unless you have all the following you are deemed to be abnormal or that there is something wrong with you. For families some of the things in the list will be needed by each member.

SKY TV
latest flat screen
the latest mobile phone
yearly holiday abroad
a car
ps3 - wii
dvd player
computer
internet
new wardrobe of clothes annually
memberships - gym etc
therapy treatments - nails, hair, sunbeds etc
restaurant/take -aways at least once a week

plus about another 20 things if you are a family.