Good long lasting natural deodrants?

choille

Brilliant - thanks for that.

Ben84

The deodorant stones I've seen so far (the ones that look like clear quartz) are potassium alum. They do contain aluminium as part of the potassium alum, but that doesn't inevitably mean they're bad for you because some other aluminium containing ingredients used in other deodorants are believed to be unhealthy. They are different compounds and really need to be considered separately. Structure of the molecules is very important in what it does, a classic example is when you combine hydrogen, carbon and nitrogen (all harmless in pure form and part of our own bodies in various amounts) to make hydrogen cyanide. Simply rearranging the atoms in harmless compounds can turn them in to dangerous substances, and for the same reasons rearranging harmful compounds can make them harmless.

Matching the atoms in different compounds doesn't give any great clues to their structure and effects.

I don't know enough about the stuff to say anything useful about the safety of potassium alum, but I do know it's not the other aluminium containing compounds used in many deodorants and comparing it is not going to be useful. The claims it's safe may be true, but rather than inform us openly it seems a lot of retailers are advising that aluminium containing deodorants are bad while ironically selling one and not being very honest about it containing aluminium as well, even if it is in a different form.

The word aluminium is a prominent word in the ingredients list of most deodorants, and I think it allows the retailers to make a clear consumer differentiation between the two products when it's not so very clear at all.

As for the claim it's 100% natural, that doesn't mean a lot either. Many natural substances have been found to be unhealthy. That natural means healthy or even eco-friendly is probably the biggest myth in the world of eco-friendly retailing. This also tends to be attached to the idea that synthetics are bad, which again is anything but a certainty. Some are harmful, while others entirely harmless.

We'll only figure this out by looking at the safety of potassium alum itself. Natural doesn't mean a lot, while it containing aluminium isn't a clear answer either.

Fire_Fox

:eek: My mum has been using Pitrok or similar since becoming allergic to some branded anti-perspirants. We had put it down to the aluminium or zinc they all seem to contain, as she has been allergic to all metals for years (gold wedding ring, back of jeans button, bra strap buckle, hypo-allergenic jewellery). But if Pitrok still contains metal then I am stumped.

Volcano

Ben84 wrote: »

Matching the atoms in different compounds doesn't give any great clues to their structure and effects.

While broadly true for organic (carbon containing) compounds, this becomes less true when we're talking about toxic metals. Cyanide is toxic because of its molecular structure. Metals such as lead, cadmium and aluminium are inherently toxic due to their having similar electron configurations as more benign elements such as potassium, calcium and sodium; They 'compete' with these elements in the body and in some cases are far more successful at binding with proteins than the beneficial elements they end up replacing.

Aluminium containing salts, whether as potassium aluminium sulphate and ammonium aluminium sulphate (as in the 'crystal' types) or aluminium chlorohydrate (as in conventional ones) are all soluble, whether in water or your bloodstream, and aluminium ions are released. While aluminium toxicity in high concentrations is well known, it's also a carcinogen in animals and genotoxic (damages cells) amongst other deleterious biological effects at lower concentrations.

There is a bit of debate about how much aluminium finds its way into human tissue via the skin, though recent research (below) seems to be coming to the conclusion that this method of delivery is underestimated and aluminium can certainly find its way into human tissue from antiperspirants.

I appreciate that most don't have access to academic journals so part of the conclusion to the 2005 paper is below:

"......As active antiperspirant agents, aluminium salts are applied frequently and left on the skin at high levels in the locally relevant area and dermal absorption of aluminium has been shown to provide a significant proportion of the human body burden of aluminium........ If cosmetic ingredients play any role in the rising incidence of breast cancer, then options for prevention could include personal decisions to cease usage or reformulation of products. Given the wide exposure of the human population to antiperspirants around the breast area, the lack of any knowledge concerning long term low dose exposure of the human breast to aluminium should be a major concern and should provide the impetus for an urgently needed research effort in this area."

Aluminium in human breast tissue, Exley et al, Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry Vol.101, (9),2007, pp 1344-1346.

Aluminium, antiperspirants and breast cancer, Darbre P, Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry Vol 99, (9), September 2005, Pages 1912-1919

Rosymop: The ingredient list for that product is the worst I've seen; listing the individual elements is pointless, while seemingly glossing over the 'mineral salts' at the beginning is as dodgy as it gets. Does it contain aluminium? I bet you a tenner it does!

Aluminium-free anti-perspirants (as opposed to deodorants) are quite rare, I know that the Thursday Plantation one doesn't contain aluminium and if anyone knows of any others that don't either, then let us know.

Ben84

Volcano wrote: »

While broadly true for organic (carbon containing) compounds, this becomes less true when we're talking about toxic metals. Cyanide is toxic because of its molecular structure. Metals such as lead, cadmium and aluminium are inherently toxic due to their having similar electron configurations as more benign elements such as potassium, calcium and sodium; They 'compete' with these elements in the body and in some cases are far more successful at binding with proteins than the beneficial elements they end up replacing.

I entirely agree with what you're saying about how and why these metals are toxic, but this is assuming they're free to bind to other compounds in the body and that depends on the structure they're part of when ingested.

Structure is still very relevant when considering metals. The structure of the aluminium containing molecule could potentially make it unable to pass through the skin - so it's never ingested, or inert and unable to come apart and bind with other molecules in the body.

Aluminium in certain compounds is allowed as a food additive (calcium aluminium silicate), while alumnium oxide is used in things like water filters, and in toothpastes as an abrasive. Apparently these forms are not harmful because of how the aluminium is combined in the structure of the material.

Volcano

Ben84 wrote: »

Structure is still very relevant when considering metals. The structure of the aluminium containing molecule could potentially make it unable to pass through the skin - so it's never ingested, or inert and unable to come apart and bind with other molecules in the body.

Yes, quite true. Though the aforementioned aluminium compounds disassociate readily and dermal absorption of aluminium has been shown.

Aluminium in certain compounds is allowed as a food additive (calcium aluminium silicate), while alumnium oxide is used in things like water filters, and in toothpastes as an abrasive. Apparently these forms are not harmful because of how the aluminium is combined in the structure of the material.

Toxicologists used to be mainly concerned with how much it took to make you ill or kill you. With more focus now on carcinogens and less severe neurotoxins, things have changed somewhat. Calcium aluminium silicate via oral ingestion from normal food isn't enough to poison you, though other effects could be possible (as with the previous examples) and here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T09-485YC0S-F9&_user=7801071&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000023538&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=7801071&md5=c1e530992b9ef4c481a06720359381e9
is linked to neurodegradation.

Aluminium oxide is very stable and unlikely to be an issue (unless inhaled in large quantities).

We're possibly straying slightly away from the point though; if anyone is concerned about aluminium in anti-perspirants, then it's useful to know that "pure, natural mineral salts" that "contain no aluminium chlorohydrate" could still be produced in a large chemical factory, contain significant amounts of aluminium that can get into your body, and yet STILL comply quite happily with advertising standards, trade descriptions etc!

Ben84

Volcano wrote: »

Yes, quite true. Though the aforementioned aluminium compounds disassociate readily and dermal absorption of aluminium has been shown.



Toxicologists used to be mainly concerned with how much it took to make you ill or kill you. With more focus now on carcinogens and less severe neurotoxins, things have changed somewhat. Calcium aluminium silicate via oral ingestion from normal food isn't enough to poison you, though other effects could be possible (as with the previous examples) and here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T09-485YC0S-F9&_user=7801071&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000023538&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=7801071&md5=c1e530992b9ef4c481a06720359381e9
is linked to neurodegradation.

Aluminium oxide is very stable and unlikely to be an issue (unless inhaled in large quantities).

We're possibly straying slightly away from the point though; if anyone is concerned about aluminium in anti-perspirants, then it's useful to know that "pure, natural mineral salts" that "contain no aluminium chlorohydrate" could still be produced in a large chemical factory, contain significant amounts of aluminium that can get into your body, and yet STILL comply quite happily with advertising standards, trade descriptions etc!

Fair point, I'm just concerned that they're perpetuating the idea all alumnium containing materials are unhealthy when the concerns are only linked to only certain types.

I find it particuarly strange that they're giving this idea while selling something that contains not just alumnium, but alumnium in a similar form as well!

As for the ASA, I don't think they investigate when they don't get complaints, so whenever you feel significantly misled it is worth writing to them.

star2007

I use Neals Yard 'Lavender and Aloe Vera' deodorant. It seems to be all natural from the ingredients - essential oils and alpine moss as an antibacterial agent, no aluminium compounds.

Also, I found cutting out dairy products completely from my diet has helped a lot working along side using a natural deodorant. Before jumping in the shower, my sweat may smell a bit stale, but not really bad. However, if I've had a lapse that week, and even just had a sandwich with a smear of butter, I can smell it really noticeably on my sweat.

dawnsong

I've found weleda citrus deodorant to be very good and lasts through the day with no odour. it's made up of alcohol, water and essential oils. I get a reaction to all other deodorants I've tried but although this stings a little on application , it's then been fine.

it's £3.10 for 30ml but only one spray is needed to be effective so lasts a good while. I used to use pitrok but didn't find it totally effective against odour.

NualaBuala

Hi,

I've never used any of these but I'm very interested. I don't have sensitive skin so can use pretty much anything but I'd like to be as ethical and green as possible. I've been told that aluminium doesn't cause breast cancer but I'd prefer to avoid it if there's an option without it that does the job. I sweat lots though so I'm wondering how effective these "natural" deodrants are compared to say Dove spray which is what I use now.

Thanks,

N