National Debts

lukekelly_2

The Economist has a clear new graph on its website today.



It illustrates how UK national debt is still significantly lower than most Western nations and will remain so. Our debt is growing more quickly than the rest of Europe, but more slowly than the USA. Of course our debt would be lower if Gordon Brown had been less profligate in the last few years, but comparatively our position is far from disastrous, as you might conclude from a cursory glance at some sections of the media and this forum.

Rochdale_Pioneers

lukekelly wrote: »

It illustrates how UK national debt is still significantly lower than most Western nations and will remain so. Our debt is growing more quickly than the rest of Europe, but more slowly than the USA. Of course our debt would be lower if Gordon Brown had been less profligate in the last few years, but comparatively our position is far from disastrous, as you might conclude from a cursory glance at some sections of the media and this forum.

Exactly. "Britain can't sustain these levels of debt" "we're bankrupt" "we're the most indebted nation on earth" etc etc are what you hear from the right wing press and commentators (Tory front benchers keep repeating that we're in more debt than anyone else!)

This is so far removed from the truth that its almost funny. If Italy can cope with 104% debt I'm sure we'll cope with 65%. France and Germany seem to manage too.

Guy_Montag

Perhaps we could have a look at UK debt, including personal & company debt compared to the G20.

beaujolais-nouveau

lukekelly wrote: »

The Economist has a clear new graph on its website today. ... It illustrates how UK national debt is still significantly lower than most Western nations and will remain so. Our debt is growing more quickly than the rest of Europe, but more slowly than the USA. Of course our debt would be lower if Gordon Brown had been less profligate in the last few years, but comparatively our position is far from disastrous, as you might conclude from a cursory glance at some sections of the media and this forum.

I seem to remember that Britain's borrowing is already, as of a week or two ago, 100 per cent of GDP - isn't that "national" debt?

Depends how you define disastrous. The humungous tax increases just around the corner, to pay off this national debt, will seem pretty disastrous to a nation with an all-time high level of personal debt (unlike France, China, etc).

It is possible that the Economist is being used for propaganda purposes - I am sure that governments everywhere are doing everything possible to postpone the collective Light Bulb Moment in their countries, partly in the hope that Something Might Turn Up, but more likely to give the government officials as much time as possible to perfect their escape plan. You mark my words, the morning we all wake up to No Money and No Food, Mandelson and co will have already done a midnight flit to a villa on a Caribbean island and pulled up the drawbridge.

Rochdale_Pioneers

Guy_Montag wrote: »

Perhaps we could have a look at UK debt, including personal & company debt compared to the G20.

Perhaps we could - using the same methodology on everyone. I doubt that we're more in debt than the Americans.

Rochdale_Pioneers

beaujolais-nouveau wrote: »

I seem to remember that Britain's borrowing is already, as of a week or two ago, 100 per cent of GDP - isn't that "national" debt?

The Economist is using the actual debt number rather than the made up versio. 100% took all of the banks now owned by the government, assumed that every penny owed to them would default, and that every penny owned by them as assets is worthless. Whilst thats the methodology used by ONS its hardly realistic.

If you take the money that the government is forecasted to actually borrow rather than some notional exposure figure, you get the numbers quoted by The Economist.

BTW if you're claiming that they are a New Labour propoganda rag, then you really are gaga.

beaujolais-nouveau

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

If Italy can cope with 104% debt I'm sure we'll cope with 65%. France and Germany seem to manage too.

I'd rather sit out a recession in Italy, France or Germany. At least those countries can all feed themselves. The UK imports one-third of its food. Next winter, we'll all be dependent on root vegetables while Italy and France still eat healthily (olive oil, etc).

piggeh

As Eastern Europe is struggling, how do they compare on the list?

Masomnia

Even if the methodology were similar it wouldn't be a useful comparison in any case, in my view, given differences like a greater desire for more home ownership here. Personal debt would look higher than France or Germany because more people take out mortgages than on the continent.

beaujolais-nouveau

Masomnia wrote: »

Personal debt would look higher than France or Germany because more people take out mortgages than on the continent.

Would look higher? Is higher. People on the Continent rent.

beaujolais-nouveau

piggeh wrote: »

As Eastern Europe is struggling, how do they compare on the list?

And Ireland.