Britain tops bank bail-outs with nearly 20% of GDP (The Guardian)

Rochdale_Pioneers

chucky wrote: »

In addition the EU reaction to the economic climate has been very slow - I think they are reacting too late and will have to throw even more cash than the UK at the problem; which can only mean we will come out of it in a stronger postion when you compare.

It will be very interesting to see how the European picture looks over then next 18 months. The EU has spent a fortune at member state level in a very piecemeal fashion aimed specifically at protecting their own interests. They are so far saying no to Eastern Europe and ignoring the howlsof pain from Ireland et al caused by exchange rates and interest rates being in the wrong place.

The lended of last resort is as you say the Germans and to a lesser extent the French. Will they maintain the European project and bail Ireland and Italy out - at the cost of losing power - or will the Euro collapse under its own debt mountain. For all thats being said about Britain, we are safely clear of that disaster area.

Generali

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

OK then, use America instead. Its fine I take it for the knockers to take headlines like this to compare the UK in a negative light compared to the rest of the world? Why isn't it alright for me to the same in reverse?

I've said all along that we will come out of this in a stronger comparitive position vs our competitors. This is yet another piece of evidence indicating that I may well be right.

Hi RP,

Personally, I don't think the relative position of the UK is that important, it's the absolute position that matters and I'm sorry that didn't come across.

The UK can be in a better place than Ireland, the US, France, Germany, the Czech Republic and so on. I don't give a stuff.

My feeling is that the UK is in a very bad place in absolute terms. Not in relative terms but absolute terms.

I can't make it clearer than that and when it comes to the nitty gritty of the argument you always seem to disappear. Perhaps that's harsh and you just miss my response to you. If you catch this post, I'd be interested to know where you see the UK in absolute terms and why?

Rochdale_Pioneers

Generali wrote: »

Hi RP,

Personally, I don't think the relative position of the UK is that important, it's the absolute position that matters and I'm sorry that didn't come across.

The UK can be in a better place than Ireland, the US, France, Germany, the Czech Republic and so on. I don't give a stuff.

My feeling is that the UK is in a very bad place in absolute terms. Not in relative terms but absolute terms.

I can't make it clearer than that and when it comes to the nitty gritty of the argument you always seem to disappear. Perhaps that's harsh and you just miss my response to you. If you catch this post, I'd be interested to know where you see the UK in absolute terms and why?

What do absolute terms matter? We're not out on our own, we trade with other countries. If we end up shrinking our economy less than Germany, have less unemployment, less borrowing, less expenditore on bailouts and stimuli then Germany weakens at a faster rate than we do. Or any other country. We therefore become comparitively stronger which means that our trade and economic performance ongoing will be stronger. At the moment world trade and world output is dropping fast, rebasing itself at a lower level. If we drop less than our competitors we become a stronger player in the revalued market.

Our economy is measured in comparison to others in every measure economists can look at - we lost GDP places to France a month or so back as tthe pound devalued against the Euro. How can you argue that our performance has no relevancce in comparison to others when that is the measure used by economists and governments everywhere? We're not in a bubble you know.

Generali

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

What do absolute terms matter? We're not out on our own, we trade with other countries. If we end up shrinking our economy less than Germany, have less unemployment, less borrowing, less expenditore on bailouts and stimuli then Germany weakens at a faster rate than we do. Or any other country. We therefore become comparitively stronger which means that our trade and economic performance ongoing will be stronger. At the moment world trade and world output is dropping fast, rebasing itself at a lower level. If we drop less than our competitors we become a stronger player in the revalued market.

Our economy is measured in comparison to others in every measure economists can look at - we lost GDP places to France a month or so back as tthe pound devalued against the Euro. How can you argue that our performance has no relevancce in comparison to others when that is the measure used by economists and governments everywhere? We're not in a bubble you know.

Absolute terms matter because I care whether I have a job, not whether I have a better chance of being able to get a new one than someone who has lost their job in Ireland or France or the US or PNG or OMG or wherever.

Comparison is a tool that can be used to prove certain points by economists. I can say that the average teacher in the UK has a greater wage PPP in US$ than a teacher in Cameroon. Great. It doesn't make British teachers rich, it just makes them richer than Cameroonian teachers.

What's a revalued market, please? Also what are you trying to convey by saying, "We're not in a bubble you know", please?

Jennifer_Jane

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

What do absolute terms matter? We're not out on our own, we trade with other countries. If we end up shrinking our economy less than Germany, have less unemployment, less borrowing, less expenditore on bailouts and stimuli then Germany weakens at a faster rate than we do. Or any other country. We therefore become comparitively stronger which means that our trade and economic performance ongoing will be stronger. At the moment world trade and world output is dropping fast, rebasing itself at a lower level. If we drop less than our competitors we become a stronger player in the revalued market.

Our economy is measured in comparison to others in every measure economists can look at - we lost GDP places to France a month or so back as tthe pound devalued against the Euro. How can you argue that our performance has no relevancce in comparison to others when that is the measure used by economists and governments everywhere? We're not in a bubble you know.

I suspect that the public will feel that it's the Pound (or lack of Pounds) in their pockets that matters. So, as unemployment in the UK grows, and Council Tax and Utilities increase, food prices etc, then the Public will not be feeling reassured that 'Oh well, things are worse in France, Ireland, Germany etc'.

I'm with Generali with absolutes mattering more than comparisons. Let the economists and Government play with those figures as they will, it's the prosperity of the UK that matters to me.

PS - didn't see that Generali had replied. Still agree with him!

Jen
x

chucky

Generali wrote: »

Absolute terms matter because I care whether I have a job, not whether I have a better chance of being able to get a new one than someone who has lost their job in Ireland or France or the US or PNG or OMG or wherever.

Comparison is a tool that can be used to prove certain points by economists. I can say that the average teacher in the UK has a greater wage PPP in US$ than a teacher in Cameroon. Great. It doesn't make British teachers rich, it just makes them richer than Cameroonian teachers.

What's a revalued market, please? Also what are you trying to convey by saying, "We're not in a bubble you know", please?

Absolute terms is just as important as making a comparison between other similar economies.

Comparing to Cameroon makes no sense - comparing to Germany would do

When comments like the UK is in the worst place to come out of this recession; you have no choice but to compare.

Howver, it can be dangerous comparing because you can then deflect or ignore or even take for granted the absolute situation that Generali refers to.

Generali

chucky wrote: »

Absolute terms is just as important as making a comparison between other similar economies.

Comparing to Cameroon makes no sense - comparing to Germany would do

When comments like the UK is in the worst place to come out of this recession; you have no choice but to compare.

Howver, it can be dangerous comparing because you can then deflect or ignore or even take for granted the absolute situation that Generali refers to.

Thanks for the comments.

My points were in response to RP. Do you want an absolute standard of living (I can feed, house, educate and provide healthcare for my family) or a relative one (the French may be able to teach their kids to read but if they get TB they're dead, HA!)?

I prefer an absolute standard of living. You should be free to make your choice and so aim for that.

chucky

Generali wrote: »

Thanks for the comments.

My points were in response to RP. Do you want an absolute standard of living (I can feed, house, educate and provide healthcare for my family) or a relative one (the French may be able to teach their kids to read but if they get TB they're dead, HA!)?

I prefer an absolute standard of living. You should be free to make your choice and so aim for that.

just adding my two pence worth

in that scenario i'd want the absolute choice too of course.
the comparison is an indicator to your absoulte terms in comparable terms.

both have their uses.

Generali

chucky wrote: »

just adding my two pence worth

in that scenario i'd want the absolute choice too of course.
the comparison is an indicator to your absoulte terms in comparable terms.

both have their uses.

I just re-read my response to you and it came across as a little antagonistic I think. Sorry old bean, it wasn't meant to be.

chucky

Generali wrote: »

I just re-read my response to you and it came across as a little antagonistic I think. Sorry old bean, it wasn't meant to be.

no problem Gen, it wasn't taken that way - it's a bit late in the day or even night