Energy Saving Sunken Spotlight bulbs?

Fire_Fox

BOGUSDUDE! wrote: »

Thanks for the quick response Fire Fox!!

Tried that already, halogens just keep blowing! the 20w ones more or less go straight away!

Was told that its because they are over heating, theres a bedroom above the kitchen so the lights are between ceiling of the kitchen and under the floorboards of the bedroom, and there are a lot of lights in a small area.

Was thinking along the lines of the low energy bulbs creating a lot less heat and a lot less light.

All my connectors are MR16 and with the energy saving MR16 bulbs being hard to get hold off which means more expensive, would I be better changing all the connectors to GU10s given me more options and maybe cheaper bulbs. Is the reason MR16 bulbs so hard to get because nobody uses them and soon they will be scrapped. GU10 connectors are about a £1 each so wouldnt be a massive outlay to change just dont know if im doing it unnecessarily! or am I just thinking about this too much!

Who has told you the problem is overheating? Has an electrician had a really thorough look at your set up (i.e. been under the floorboards)? I am concerned that you might go to a lot of expense only to find there is a (poss minor) problem with your electrics that is causing the lamps to blow. Are you buying very cheap lamps? Have you tried some cooler 10W MR16s just to see if they also blow quickly? Might you have some wiring that has been damaged by coming into contact with a hot lamp?

AFAIK low energy GU10 lamps are either LEDs or CFLs (Megaman brand), both of which are expensive, especially for the quantities you are talking about! Will probably be worth the money/ effort if you don't have an underlying issue with your electrics.

MrsE_2

I didn't even know they made these GU10 in energy saving

I've found these
http://www.ryness.co.uk/ProductDetails.aspx?CN=7W+GU10+Energy+Saver+Lamp+(Bell)+(10+PACK+BARGAIN)&CategoryID=801&productID=4858
They work out £4.90 each

& these
http://www.ryness.co.uk/ProductDetails.aspx?CN=9W+GU10+Energy+Saver+Lamp+(10+PACK+BARGAIN)&CategoryID=801&productID=4360
Work out at £7.50 each.

& these
http://www.ryness.co.uk/ProductDetails.aspx?CN=11W+GU10+Energy+Saving+Reflector+Bulb+(10+PACK+BARGAIN)&CategoryID=801&productID=6579
Also £7.50

In my bathroom I have 6 & its very bright (small room & all white).
In my kitchen I also have 6, but its darker (light oak cabinets & black tops, however I do have strip lighting under wall cabinets & hob lighting too).

SparkyDave

Hi everyone, I'd like to share my thoughts, I have fitted many recessed downlights and IMO the main causes of lamps blowing are, overheating due to poor ventalation, vibrations in the ceiling/floor and poor quality lamps, sometimes you just get a bad batch of lamps. but MR16 seem to blow most often, maybe poor quality transformers, but I dont know for sure this blows lamps.


As for energy saving replacements for downlight lamps;

Both GU10/GZ10(230V 2 pin bayonet) and MR16(12V 2pin push in) Halogen lamps are available in both CFL(Compact Flourecent) and LED(Light Emitting Diode) energy efficent versions. ****EDIT: Not so much choice or availability for MR16 12V CFL types but you can find some online.***

RO60 and RO80 reflector lamps, can be replaced with CFL type not sure about LED for these as Ive never fitted any.

Halogen lamps are around £1 - £1:50 in 35 and 50W
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/50993/Lighting-Lamps/Lamps/240V-Halogen-Lamps/GU10-Mains-Voltage-GU-GZ10-Halogen-50W-Lamp

CFL at about 5X as expensive to purchase as Halogen have been around a few years now available in many shades of white and offer unbeatable light per watt, however when cold the lamps appear very dim or half lit somtimes pink. The FS "Fast Start" rated lamps do a little better on cold starts but far from perfect. after about 5-10 mins an 11W gives about the same output as a 35W GU10. most are non-dimmable.
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/52469/Lighting-Lamps/Lamps/240V-Halogen-Lamps/Halolite-GU10-CFL-Energy-Saving-Reflector-11W-Lamp?cm_re=SEARCHPROMO-_-GU10%2011W-_-52469

LED replacement lamps are a newer technology than CFL and at anywhere around 3-10X the cost of Halogen, these come in 2 main kinds, most "direct replacements" I've installed use very little energy typically 1-2W per lamp but offer very dim light that can appear a very blueish white, the lamps dont get very hot and no changes have to be made to your wiring. Typically each lamp will have 20-30 small individual LEDs inside. most are non dimmable
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/32998/Lighting-Lamps/Lamps/LED-Lamps/Sylvania-Accent-Light-LED-GU10-1W-Lamp?cm_mmc=GoogleBase-_-Datafeed-_-Lighting%20and%20Lamps-_-Sylvania%20Accent%20Light.%20LED%20GU10%201W%20Lamp


The other (newer) kind of LED lamps are much brighter come in cool and warm white(WW is very similar to halogen white) as well as coloured and colour changing versions, most will need to run from a special LED driver and will require connecting in series to work, meaning rewiring in most situations, but provide very very long life with no cold starting problems. they are energy efficent but expensive. Typically each lamp will have just 1 or 3 individual LEDs inside with large lenses. most are dimmable some with wire free remote control.
http://www.collingwoodlighting.com/cnb/shop/collingwood?op=catalogue-product_info-null&prodCategoryID=19&productID=511&topLevelCatID=1


Some Downlights come with 12 Volt, 10 or 20W capsule lamps (G4/M91) I have not seen any low energy versions for these, but they are tiny, hrmm, some cars use small Wedge(NOT G4) LED lamps for sidelights etc so clearly its possible they can be or are being made.


When disscussing lighting design my regular customers ask me "what would you fit in your house" probably because they know my wife's rather fussy and likes to have everything just so and using this principle, on existing halogen downlights; for direct replacement lamps both CFL and LED offer similar cheaper running costs, CFL is far cheaper than any good quality LED for initial outlay, but suffer cold start probs.
This is what we have 5, 11W, GU10 CLF downlights in my bathroom and they are very slow to warm up. all our other rooms in the house have CFL lighting because at the moment LED is just too costly to install, and halogen, too costly to run

If you want decent light output from LED without the additional costs of rewiring the only ones I would reccomend are 3W or 9W direct GU10 versions as seen here... http://www.solarwindpowercentre.co.uk/products/gu10-9w-240v-super-bright-led-cw/33/ however they are very very expensive.

Sorry if I've waffled some and please ignore my typos

SD.

Fire_Fox

Thanks SparkyDave, great post!

I am struggling to find an energy saving alternative for my MR16s that will actually pay for itself within,say, six months. I have a dark, north facing flat so need 50W equivalent lamps. I have not found MR16s in CFLs - can you tell me what brand you recommend?

MrsE_2

Is this a replacement for a GU10 50w

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/24624/Lighting-Lamps/Lamps/LED-Lamps/Accent-Light-LED-GU10-1W-Lamp

I'm not sure about the whole 1w thing, is that ok because its LCD or is it dim?

I'm pretty sure this type would be ok,
Would it be better than the LED above?

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/52469/Lighting-Lamps/Lamps/240V-Halogen-Lamps/Halolite-GU10-CFL-Energy-Saving-Reflector-11W-Lamp

BOGUSDUDE!

Great post SparkyDave!

Your post would have saved me a lot of trawling about the old tinternet the last few days!

I asked an electrician, whos a friend of friend, who basically told me what Sparkydave said that the bulbs were overheating due bad ventilation combined with the fact there are probably to many in a small and often hot kitchen.

He also said the MR16 connectors were rubbish and should get rid of them. He offered to do for free if I got the connectors (although I would give him a few quid for his time!!)

SparkyDave

Hi again, I didn't realise how little choice there is for MR16 CFL replacements, Ive not fitted many of these (mainly GU10 as below) and like Fire Fox I am also struggling to find them, I did find this.. http://www.lamps2udirect.com/pages/fullProd.php/9-watt-MR16-GU5.3-Energy-Saver/67238 but if you have a fixed lampholder in a canister type fitting they will protrude and possibly fall out due to not being able to affix the sprung ring, if you have the open backed type they should fit ok, as long as you have some extra space above the fitting.

I have fitted many of the 1W LED lamps both in 12V and GU10 as mentioned in MrsE's post,IMO they are quite dim and give a more of a glow, Ive fitted many in garden and decking fittings as well as in the soffets of bungalows, the coloured ones are fun, some have colour change built in, I would describe them as more effect lighting as opposed to reading or worktop light.
SO the answer to your Question is, 11W CFL ones are much brighter and nicer to work under

Unfortunatly the LED ones emit 100 pulses of light every second so theres some stroboscopic risks if operating any machinery.

BOGUSDUDE! has hit on a very good point, the MR16 lampholders are or should be ceramic, and degrade over time, sometimes you can tell a bad one as the light will flicker or dim as the pins heat up they will blacken if it looks burnt at all it needs replacing.

To be honest if the sparkys offered to pop in and do it, snap him up on his offer

If you have individual transformers, 1 for each downlight it would be very easy and cheap to take out all the transformers and lampholders and replace with GU10 lampholders. you might require new downlights but the openbacked types could be reused, you also may require the fitting of firehoods depending on the location.

If you fit GU10 downlights, theres no extra transformer or extra connection to break down, less heat around the fittings, so the lamps should last longer.
Special GU10 type extra deep downlights (to take the longer CFL lamps) are available introduced to meet Part L of building regs, but you dont need these type as you dont need permission unless your undertaking more major work or building a new house.
any normal GU10 downlight will accept the shorter CFL replacements.

another interesting point is that the white light colour is often quoted as warm/cool/daylight white but also a colour temprature is given in Kelvin, such as 2700K (warm pinkish white) and 4000K(cool bluish white) this is the same system used for all types of lamps.

SD.

Fire_Fox

Another helpful post with very clear explanation! :beer:

I am still unsure of the best course of action: would need a sparky to replace my MR16 connectors with GU10 and/ or to replace my four-gang (two are sliding dimmers) light switch. I have never even seen four switches on the one plate before this flat.

stevehead

Hi,
Every light in my house is an LED.
I replaced 11 MR16's in my bathroom with Cree Xlamp based Warm White 3W direct replacements. They run fine from the existing 12VDC transformer. They give out a very pleasant spectrum and equate to a 15w halogen.
Some transformers will need replacing as the LED's flicker. I used a PSU designed for a TFT monitor (ebay) wherever the existing 12V halogen psu was incompatable.
There are a lot of shabby LED bulbs out there; if you can get to try a (genuine) Cree based bulb, you'll probable carry on buying more LED's.

MaureenHB

We have bought some LED 1.2 W bulbs today from B&Q ( about £5 for a pack of 2) to replace some of the 50W halogens installed in our kitchen. The light from them is very harsh bluey white, so we will definitely be looking for something a bit warmer looking to replace others. Interesting thread, thank you.