Tribunal Help

omen666

My sister is currently waiting to go to a tribunal and has a date in March. She was dismissed for Gross Misconduct and her contract terminated due to this.

She had taken unauthorised time off from a pre school nusery she worked at which is run provately at a local school and there is a dispute over the supposed procedures for booking holday which the nusery said were in place but we have evidence to the contrary.

Anyway she is going to the tribunal as they changed their holiday procedure after her disciplinary to reflect what they were sacking her for and she appealed the dismissal and was not succesful. She is claiming for 4 weeks lieu of notice and also the 3 days she was suspended on full pay awaiting the disciplinary hearing.

The issue we have now is this:

Scenario: She worked a year at the pre school nusery located in the same school as she worked in the 3 years at the after school club. The nusery is run privately and the after school club is run by the school, both seperate entities.

She has applied for a new job and was suppposed to start on Monday just gone pending satisfactory references. She gave the name of the Headmistress of the after school club she worked at for 3 years with exemplary working. However the headmistress stated that she cannot give a reference as my sister has a dispute with the pre school nusery that is based at the same school.

Now my sister gave the Headmistress as a reference and stipulated it was for the 3 years working at the schools after school club and not for the one year she worked at the schools nusery who she has a private dispute with and tribunal coming up.

the headmistress gave her a unsatisfactory reference based on the nusery and not on the after school club as requested.

She was called yesterday and told that she does not have the satisfactory references and the job offer is being withdrawn.

My questions are these:

1. Can the Headmistress give this information out regarding the dispute for the pre school nusery when the ref was requested for the after school club?
2. Has the headmistress broke the DPA regarding giving out this information?
3. Should the headmistress have given the reference based on the after school club as requested and not mention the ongoing dispute?
4. If they are in the wrong is there any recourse for this if so what?
5.The new job was based on a verbal agreement, what should we do to get evidence that this has happened bearing in mind the new prospective employer does not want to get involved in the dispute?
6. Is this legal that she gave a horrendous reference when the Headmistress gave a unsatisfactory reference for the nusery when this is a seperate entity in the school?

Any other observations and advice welcome

pinkshoes

I would say it would be a moral dilema for the headmistress, as although she may have felt that your sister did a good job at the after school club, it would be difficult (and immoral) for her to write a glowing reference if she is in full knowlege that her current performace at the nursary was not satisfactory.

Also, surely the job she applied for wouldn't be happy that your sister was unable to provide a reference for her last job, which indicates that a good reference is not available?

Taking unauthorised time off is a sackable offence. She should have got written agreement to take the time off before taking it, and was wrong to do otherwise.

cazziebo

omen666 wrote: »

However the headmistress stated that she cannot give a reference as my sister has a dispute with the pre school nusery that is based at the same school.

Now my sister gave the Headmistress as a reference and stipulated it was for the 3 years working at the schools after school club and not for the one year she worked at the schools nusery who she has a private dispute with and tribunal coming up.

the headmistress gave her a unsatisfactory reference based on the nusery and not on the after school club as requested.

Did the headmistress refuse to give a reference or did she give a bad reference? I agree with Pinkshoes - it would be difficult for the headmistress to give a positive reference.

Quite okay for the Head to give a poor reference if it is based on fact. If it can be shown to be incorrect then there is room to complain. However, I'm sure Heads of schools are used to giving references and are savvy enough not to get themselves in bother.

No grounds for complaint, imo.

SomeBozo

Can the Headmistress give this information out regarding the dispute for the pre school nusery when the ref was requested for the after school club?

Yes of course.

2. Has the headmistress broke the DPA regarding giving out this information?

No. If she had given away information about the dispute, then possibly. But to say "This employee is currently going through the tribunal process" is facutally correct and to the point.

3. Should the headmistress have given the reference based on the after school club as requested and not mention the ongoing dispute?

The reference has to be factual, so anyone can put anything in a reference (good or bad) as long as its true. If a employee gets a diciplinary for say, stealing, mentioning this in a reference is fine and proper!

4. If they are in the wrong is there any recourse for this if so what?

I don't think they are in the wrong.

5.The new job was based on a verbal agreement, what should we do to get evidence that this has happened bearing in mind the new prospective employer does not want to get involved in the dispute?

It sounds like the arrangement was "You got the job, subject to references". The references were not up to the required standard and the offer withdrawn, I cannot see anything wrong here.

6. Is this legal that she gave a horrendous reference when the Headmistress gave a unsatisfactory reference for the nusery when this is a seperate entity in the school?

A reference is not just about the job. Its about the personality, lots of aspects. You can't ask a referee to say "just comment on this, not that".


I really can see how your sister can feel hard done by. But she has gone to a tribunal over what? 4 weeks and 3 days pay. And no doubt a big helping of pride!

As a result what does she want? She won't get her job back, and now its prevented her getting another job as its still on-going, and no doubt giving a headache to the local school and associated nurseries (who she now wants to work for!)

I think she was badly advised.

Bozo

omen666

I see what you are all saying and apprecuate you taking the time out to reply. I cannot see though how the Headmaster who has no affiliation to the Nusery can mke in essence representations on their behalf which she has done when she was asked for a reference based on when she was working for the headmistress in the after school club.

The tribunal should be of no concern of her new employer IMHO unless it surrounded the safety of the children.

@ Pinkshoes, the tribunal surrounds the fact that there was no policy in place in getting time off and that she done what she had done before only to be told this was not right after the fact

SomeBozo

omen666 wrote: »

The tribunal should be of no concern of her new employer IMHO unless it surrounded the safety of the children.

With the greatest respect I can see why a tribunal is a big issue to the new employer.

Bozo

omen666

SomeBozo wrote: »

With the greatest respect I can see why a tribunal is a big issue to the new employer.

Bozo

I dont disagree with you there, I would be reluctant to employ someone as well. The thing is this Nusery is like a fly by night shambles, they got everything wrong in the disciplinary procedures to their own day to day procedures and IMHO my sister will win. I just think they have denied her a job that she should have got but again due to someones incompetance she has been shafter by them again

pinkshoes

omen666 wrote: »

@ Pinkshoes, the tribunal surrounds the fact that there was no policy in place in getting time off and that she done what she had done before only to be told this was not right after the fact

There may have been no policy as such in place for taking time off, but it is basic common sense and common knowledge that permission is required, and that no means no.

Their reasons for now changing/clarifying their procedure is no doubt because common sense did not prevail, and people abused the system, so it now needs spelling out to the employees.

Savvy_Sue

And the moral of this story is ALWAYS to contact the people you want to be your referees BEFORE you put their name on the form! I know it's easy to be wise after the event, but it's a fundamental of jobseeking, and if your sister had done this, the headteacher would have said "I'm sorry, I can't do that".