Man Made Global Warming - yet another opinion

Volcano

geordie_joe wrote: »

Well, we haven't had thermometers long enough to have "long term" measurements, even less time when people were recording the temperature!

Sigh.....

Clue: Thermometer readings aren't the only way of measuring past temperatures.

Ben84

geordie_joe wrote: »

For the record, can you define what you mean by "long periods of time"?

The media talk too much about events that took place over time periods as short as a few weeks. We need to consider all known climate past, as well as known CO2 levels in the atmosphere. However, the period of time from around the industrial revolution until today is the one to pay attention to as this is where we see, as we have seen many times before, when the CO2 goes up so does the temperature. This isn't the first time CO2 has changed the average temperature. The difference this time is that we have reason to suspect the CO2 is being introduced to the atmosphere by human activities.

geordie_joe wrote: »

But that's the point, it hasn't been getting warmer! Scientists can produce all the figures they like, but the plain fact is it is no warmer now than it was decades ago.

The World Meteorological Organization, who are part of the UN and have collected huge amounts of data from many sources say the Earth is getting warmer. Most governments I can think of, including the US and UK believe the average temperature is going up. It's hard to avoid this conclusion from the data, it's a simple assessment of temperature readings, and all remotely credible sources I can think of (governments, universities, researchers and major non-profit organisations) seem to agree the temperature is going up.

Not everyone agrees on the reasons why, but the idea the temperaure hasn't changed would be challeged from all reputable sources I know of. Have you seen anything that isn't from the mass media to support the idea that it isn't increasing?

geordie_joe

Ben84 wrote: »

Not everyone agrees on the reasons why, but the idea the temperaure hasn't changed would be challeged from all reputable sources I know of. Have you seen anything that isn't from the mass media to support the idea that it isn't increasing?

Yes, I've been outside at least once every day for the last 49.5 years (not counting 5 days I stayed in hospital a couple of years ago) and I have seen it is not increasing. If anything it is getting colder!

Ben84

geordie_joe wrote: »

Normal changes in temprature? We know the UK has had tropical plants growing on it in the past and also been covered in ice, so anything in between those two must be considered as normal changes.

The UK has changed location significantly since prehistoric times. The world is anything but static. Oceans become mountains, forests deserts. Climate change and environmental changes are normal and to be expected. However, much evidence now suggests they're led largely by the life forms on earth, and it is actually not the planet controlling life so much as life controlling the planet. The large amounts of oxygen in the atmosphere, which can only be created in its free form by respirations of photosynthetic organisims is a good example of this effect.

As for those tropical forests, I'm presuming they would be somewhere around the Jurassic age when much of the plant matter that later became coal was burried. Elevated CO2 levels helped make it warmer then until the abundant plant growth burried much of it over many years as carbon in plant matter that became trapped and would eventually become fossil fuels, and the average temperature started to fall. Far from disproving the science, this is an example that fits the pattern well.

geordie_joe

Ben84 wrote: »

The media talk too much about events that took place over time periods as short as a few weeks.

I actually asked you

Originally Posted by geordie joe
For the record, can you define what you mean by "long periods of time"?

You haven't even come close to answering that!

Ben84 wrote: »

We need to consider all known climate past, as well as known CO2 levels in the atmosphere.

OK, how far back can we go?

Ben84 wrote: »

However, the period of time from around the industrial revolution until today is the one to pay attention to as this is where we see, as we have seen many times before, when the CO2 goes up so does the temperature.

You haven't given any proof that the temperature has gone up, nor any proof that we actually know what the average temperature of the earth has been during this period.

As for CO2, when did we start measuring that?

Ben84 wrote: »

This isn't the first time CO2 has changed the average temperature.

I think you actually mean that this isn't the first time the temperature has gone up, and some scientists think it was due to the CO2 levels. We weren't there, and the people that were (if there were any,) didn't keep records so how can we be sure?

Ben84 wrote: »

The difference this time is that we have reason to suspect the CO2 is being introduced to the atmosphere by human activities.

No, we know for certain that CO2 is being introduced by human activity, some scientist have reason to suspect this extra CO2 is causing global warming, others have reason to suspect it's not!

Ben84 wrote: »

The World Meteorological Organization, who are part of the UN and have collected huge amounts of data from many sources say the Earth is getting warmer.

But they can't tell us, with any accuracy what the weather will be like in three days time, so what makes you think they are right.

Ben84 wrote: »

Most governments I can think of, including the US and UK believe the average temperature is going up.

Actually they are just "believing" those who shout loudest. These same governments also believe Sadam had weapons of mass destruction.

Just wait, once they realise they can't afford global warming they will soon disbelieve it.

Ben84 wrote: »

It's hard to avoid this conclusion from the data, it's a simple assessment of temperature readings, and all remotely credible sources I can think of (governments, universities, researchers and major non-profit organisations) seem to agree the temperature is going up.

I suspect that is because you regard any source that says the temperature is going up as being credible, and any that says it isn't as not credible.

Ben84 wrote: »

Not everyone agrees on the reasons why, but the idea the temperaure hasn't changed would be challeged from all reputable sources I know of

Why have you changed from "the earth is getting warmer" to "the idea that the temperature hasn't changed"?

I didn't say the temperature hasn't changed, I said it is getting colder.

geordie_joe

Ben84 wrote: »

Oceans become mountains,

I seriously doubt an ocean can become a mountain! If it became cold enough it could maybe become a very large block of ice, but I'm sure water can only become gas, liquid or ice, it can't become rock.

Ben84 wrote: »

Climate change and environmental changes are normal and to be expected.

Exactly, the climate changes all the time, it's just this time people have found they can make money from it.

Ben84 wrote: »

However, much evidence now suggests they're led largely by the life forms on earth, and it is actually not the planet controlling life so much as life controlling the planet.

What evidence? Show me "much evidence that suggests life controls the planet".

Ben84 wrote: »

The large amounts of oxygen in the atmosphere, which can only be created in its free form by respirations of photosynthetic organisims is a good example of this effect.

If oxygen can only be created by respirations of photosynthetic organisims why is it the third most abundant chemical element in the universe? Why is 1% of the sun oxygen?

Ben84 wrote: »

As for those tropical forests, I'm presuming they would be somewhere around the Jurassic age when much of the plant matter that later became coal was burried. Elevated CO2 levels helped make it warmer then until the abundant plant growth burried much of it over many years as carbon in plant matter that became trapped and would eventually become fossil fuels, and the average temperature started to fall. Far from disproving the science, this is an example that fits the pattern well.

So, during the ice ages, when most of the planet was covered in ice, how did the earth warm up again?

shaven-monkey

geordie_joe wrote: »

If oxygen can only be created by respirations of photosynthetic organisims why is it the third most abundant chemical element in the universe? Why is 1% of the sun oxygen?

Oxygen gas is most usually liberated in the earth's atmosphere by photosynthesis.
We haven't figured out a way to sustain fusion on a large enough scale to produce the stuff out of hydrogen on demand yet.

Ben84

How far back can we go? I assumed you realised this is in the scale of millions of years and were not expecting a precise date. If you want to know more about how we measure these things, a good starting point would be to look up ice cores/boreholes, and perhaps also tree rings, ocean sediments, and fossil records (pollen fossils are very helpful).

We do have strong and compelling evidence for past climates though all of these sources, both their temperature and their various atmospheric gases, and we can see a lot of trends. CO2 and temperature is a very strong one. They track each other extremely well when plotted on the same graph and have never broken away from each other.

The EPA have a graph of their data which shows the strength of this connection:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/pastcc_fig1.html

knowledgepower1

In my own opinion, If Al Gore was elected as US president we wouldn't be deceived into this global warming stories or movies he has been making. Come to think of it his electricity bill for a year in his mansion was in the range on 20 grand and he advocates global warming....big deception to shape our lives

Ben84

geordie_joe wrote: »

I seriously doubt an ocean can become a mountain! If it became cold enough it could maybe become a very large block of ice, but I'm sure water can only become gas, liquid or ice, it can't become rock.

A minor wording issue. Oceans can be replaced with mountains should make more sense. However, most the water on earth did start as rock, until volcannic activity broke the molecules down and produced, as one of many things, steam.

geordie_joe wrote: »

Exactly, the climate changes all the time, it's just this time people have found they can make money from it.

Many climate change supporters will gain nothing from it. I don't doubt some people are using it to make money, but that doesn't change if it's real or not.

geordie_joe wrote: »

What evidence? Show me "much evidence that suggests life controls the planet".

The presence of oxygen in the atmosphere.

geordie_joe wrote: »

If oxygen can only be created by respirations of photosynthetic organisims why is it the third most abundant chemical element in the universe? Why is 1% of the sun oxygen?

Oxygen is not 'created' by photosythesis, it is released. Photosynthesis is well worth looking up, if only to understand the basic outline of what is happening. It's an important part of how plants/organisims interact with the environment, and a major part of the carbon cycle too. You need to know it to consider global warming and the carbon cycle in context.

geordie_joe wrote: »

So, during the ice ages, when most of the planet was covered in ice, how did the earth warm up again?

Many things affect the Earth. A change in tilt towards the sun and volcanic activity are two examples.