Bishops Put Boot into Brown's Promises & Policies

chucky

they should stick to figuring out why people don't go to church anymore instead of politics

edinburgher

I think you guys have a very skewed view of the 'lot' of an average member of the clergy. Then again, you're probably the sort who like to blame city traders for the state of the economy without admitting to any personal greed

Good on the bishops - sod their financial worth, they're right to say what they have.

1echidna

I think that the bishops have joined the popular blame game. I don't see much intrinsically different from making money in the markets to that made in manufacturing. They would not attack shop keepers in this way. True it all went wrong in financial services but in previous crisis it was failures in manufacturing especially that led to problems and we didn't see the bishops laying blame then. Pompous gits.

tradetime

edinburgher wrote: »

I think you guys have a very skewed view of the 'lot' of an average member of the clergy. Then again, you're probably the sort who like to blame city traders for the state of the economy without admitting to any personal greed

As a fulltime trader that would probably not be appropriate, I just happen to consider the clergy to be a bunch of sanctimonious blasphemers, that's all.

treliac

edinburgher wrote: »

Then again, you're probably the sort who like to blame city traders for the state of the economy without admitting to any personal greed

When it comes to greed, I should think most of us are on such a different scale, there can be no comparison.

dopester

Davesnave wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7801667.stm

I have no idea whether the Church manages its affairs in an ethical manner, but it's nice to see God joining the debate, albeit by proxy.

I'm expecting a big society-wide revival for the church and religion in the UK, and in Europe.

The downturn could be a welcomed like a god-sent opportunity for them, in gaining more real political power in society.

There is going to be further rejection of secular consumerism, and a return to values that will stand the test of time. When someone has hold of glass beads that really don't serve a practical function, their appeal wears thin in times of trouble. Consumerism cannot be the centre of life for long.

It is always shallow because it relates to the creation in people's minds of wants that suit the manufacturer rather than the consumer of the goods. This is not a condemnation of the manufacturer, but it is fundamentally a false view of society that the difference between happiness and unhappiness is how much chrome you have on the tail fin of your car.

We think it is extremely likely that the religious movement we see at work in many societies across the globe will be strengthened if we go through a very difficult economic period. Religion may be strengthened because the current thrust of science no longer undermines the religious perception of reality. Indeed, for the first time in centuries it actually buttresses it.

Religion will also be strengthened because the breakdown of social order will further discredit the attempts of the state to substitute for the social functions that religions performed in traditional societies. The rising tide of crime, in particular, underscores the need for more potent controls on behaviour than overtaxed police and court systems can enforce.

Don't we see enough examples of it elsewhere in the world.. where political power back with adequate force and policing and law is unable to rule adequately... the turning to religious, even hard-line religious bodies, to compensate and to help keep order.

I don't trust religious authorities in the main. To me they are all about power and control as their main aims, but perhaps better that to keep some sections of society working together and defending basic freedoms to life, than outright anarchy.

It is not a coincidence that freedom of religion is prized in the Western tradition but not prized in poorer societies where markets are underdeveloped and governments only have marginal ability to enforce property rights and maintain order.

Prior to the Gunpowder Revolution, and the Reformation it set in motion, freedom of religion and even the freedom to form individual judgements on matters of faith scarcely existed in Christian Europe.

Consider the story of Peter Abelard, a leading scholar of the twelfth century. He was a bright and learned man, much honoured in later centuries, who brought down upon himself the wrath of the whole medieval church.

Abelard argued what would today be obscure and trivial points about the power of the devil and the theological reasons that Jesus was born. Yet the very fact that he questioned even a part of received religious doctrine unleashed a firestorm of outrage.

Saint Bernard, speaking for the church elders, responded in much the same spirit as Ayatollah Khomeini reacted to Salman Rushdie. Saint Bernard said:

Which shall I call the more intolerable in these words - the blasphemy or the arrogance? . . . Does he not deservedly provoke every man's hand against him, whose hand is raised against every man?

Too free a thinker for his time, Abelard was castrated.

The Church (European) has been undermined in real power since the invention of the printing press (which they fought against with fury) allowed the widespread spread of new ideas, cheaply, (not books written by monks in Abbeys) - and the Gunpowder Revolution.

So standby for more jockeying for position, and more power going to religious/church authorities in the UK.

Edit:
Quoted source: James Dale Davidson.

olly300

Dopester where are all your quotes from?

Davesnave

Responses pretty much as I expected, which is why I said that I'd no idea how ethical the deployment of church funds has been. They must invest them somewhere.

I think it is will be particularly galling for Brown to be reminded about the inevitability of failure to meet targets on child poverty in Britain, when he has been cultivating the image of world financial saviour. Even when times have been 'good,' and much money has been thrown at the problem, the rise of the underclass has continued, unchecked.

harry_w

Davesnave wrote: »

Responses pretty much as I expected, which is why I said that I'd no idea how ethical the deployment of church funds has been. They must invest them somewhere.

...

The Anglican hierarchy some of the biggest ethical show-boaters seen since the Second Temple*.

God, spivs and specs
Posted by Gwen Robinson on Sep 25 07:46.

Of course someone had to bring God into this at some point. And how.

Britain’s archbishops are condemning spivs and speculators for “worshipping the false god of money” and urging a further crackdown on financial markets, while the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams has gone a step further to say Karl Marx was “right” to condemn capitalism.

Meanwhile Dr John Sentamu, Archbishop of York, told the Worshipful Company of International Bankers: “Those who made £190million deliberately underselling the shares of HBOS, in spite of its very strong capital base, and drove it into the bosom of Lloyds TSB, are clearly bank robbers and asset strippers.

But lo! Wait… The Daily Mail, itself a campaigner against evil speculators, says Dr Williams’ latest outburst adds to “a series of speeches and interventions in which the Archbishop has created the growing impression of support for left-wing causes”. His “strong language about market mechanisms is an attack on right wing and classical liberal academics and politicians who admire 18th century Scottish philosopher Adam Smith, the first modern economist”.

For once, we’re almost lost for words…

As one cynical hedge fund hand observed: “If outfits like Bradford & Bingley go down, even after shorting has been banned, who will they blame then? Beelzebub?”

So read, marvel and pray….
From The Times on Thursday:

Time to curb the ‘asset strippers and robbers’ who ruin the financial markets, say archbishops
Leaders of the Church of England launched fierce attacks on the world’s stock market traders last night, condemning them as bank robbers and asset strippers and calling for a judicial review into Britain’s financial services. The Archbishops of Canterbury and York demanded stronger regulation and an end to speculation and living on debt.
Dr Williams calls for a basis of “common prosperity” to be established and suggests that other financial practices besides short-selling should also be banned. “Without a background of social stability everyone will eventually suffer.”

The Archbishop of Canterbury has also written a piece for The Spectator on the credit crisis, in which he defends Karl Marx and his anti-capitalist theories, and warns that society is running the risk of idolatry in its relationship with wealth.
And in a hard-hitting speech to bankers in London, Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu condemned traders who had profited from the crisis as “bank robbers” and said that the market had taken its rules from Alice in Wonderland.Dr Sentamu said no one was guiltless in the present crisis and that everyone had joined in worshipping the false god of money. In an interview with The Times he added that the time had come for a formal inquiry into the banking and finance industry.

At least Dr Williams said he was not arguing for “rigid Soviet-style centralised direction”, as the Daily Telegraph notes - for which we suppose God-fearing folks should be thankful. But he agreed that the ban on short-selling was right and added: “Governments should not lose their nerve as they look to identify a few more targets.”

Targets??!!

Despite the Archbishops’ criticisms of the capitalist system, the Telegraph adds, the Church of England has billions of pounds of its wealth invested in the stock market and earlier this year disclosed a record return of more than 9.4 per cent. Fancy that then….

This entry was posted by Gwen Robinson on Thursday, September 25th, 2008 at 07:46

What would Jesus short?
Posted by Sam Jones on Sep 25 17:27.

Or perhaps more appropriately: Money lenders in the temple?

From PA:

CHURCH OF ENGLAND ACCUSED OF SHORT-SELLING TACTICS
By Paula Fentiman, PA

The Church of England was accused by a think-tank today of using short-selling tactics to maximise profit on its £5 billion investments.

Ekklesia weighed into the debate on the ethics of financial investments and stock market speculation in response to comments made by senior clerics in the wake of the recent banking crisis.

Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu branded the traders who cashed in on falling share prices in troubled bank HBOS as “bank robbers” and “asset strippers”, while Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams called for fresh scrutiny and regulation of the financial world.

But the religion and society think-tank Ekklesia claimed that in 2006, the Church Commissioners, which manages the Church of England’s investments, set up a currency hedging programme that hedged against a fall in the value of sterling, effectively short-selling the British pound to guard against rises in other currencies.

Yes, the Church of England shorted the pound.

Here’s the underlying Ekklesia statement. And also, the church commissioner’s report, which details the CoE’s financial operations.
It’s not really shorting the pound of course - it’s hedging. But then Rowan Williams and John Sentamu weren’t making that distinction earlier. Let he who is without sin and all that, chaps.

Perhaps the CoE’s leadership will come to realise that not all shorting is bad. Things are rarely so black and white - good and evil - in the markets.

In the meantime, from Rowan, a prayer (genuine):

Prayer for the current financial situation
Lord God, we live in disturbing days:
across the world,
prices rise,
debts increase,
banks collapse,
jobs are taken away,
and fragile security is under threat.
Loving God, meet us in our fear and hear our prayer:
be a tower of strength amidst the shifting sands,
and a light in the darkness;
help us receive your gift of peace,
and fix our hearts where true joys are to be found,
in Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

God God! It’s working!

This entry was posted by Sam Jones on Thursday, September 25th, 2008 at 17:27

Church accused over short selling
Posted by Gwen Robinson on Sep 26 05:12.

The Church of England faced accusations of hypocrisy on Thursday over its leaders’ attack on short selling and debt trading after hedge funds pointed out it uses some of the same practices when investing its own assets. Rowan Williams, the archbishop of Canterbury and head of the Anglican Church, said it was right to ban short selling, while John Sentamu, archbishop of York, called traders who cashed in on falling prices “bank robbers and asset strippers”. Hedge funds pointed to the willingness of the Church commissioners to lend foreign stock from their £5.5bn of investments – an essential support for short selling – and derided the pair for not understanding shorting. Andreas Whittam-Smith, who as First Church Estates Commissioner oversees the Church’s assets, said the commissioners on Thursday referred the practice of stock lending back to their ethical advisory group, which had previously approved it. As well as aiding shorting by lending stock, the Church commissioners had £13m invested in Man Group, the largest listed hedge fund manager, at end-2007 and also sold a £135m mortgage portfolio last year, according to their annual report.

This entry was posted by Gwen Robinson on Friday, September 26th, 2008 at 5:12

* "Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!" (Robert Powell / Franco Zeffirelli style)

Matthew 23 and Commentary.

They'll take the moral high ground on any media story if it'll get their gob on Radio 4, or into The Times and The Telegraph.

Turning on their hedge fund friends on behalf of the bankers, and then the bankers on behalf of ... us (or the Lord?) beats pontificating about sharia law and 'social cohesion' to stir up nationalist moral panic and increase suspicion of Muslims.

I'd rather they take up roller-blading though.

auximinies

They have a point started on their attacks on Thatcher and continued today. The 80's model free-market liberal capitalism has done very little for the world's poor. Its final collapse this autumn will hopefully see a fairer more regulated version created in its place. There will be a progressive centre-left coalition in place once Obama takes the White House - anyone betting on a February election denying Brown the opportunity to stand with Obama in remodelling the global finance system is bonkers.