NHS Dentists - RIP?

pandaonmyshoulder

Oh so it's classed as yearly increase :mad:

Toothsmith

zar wrote:

How long are you tied into a denplan contract for? ...

You have to give 21 days notice to Denplan to cancel it. If it's less than 21 days to the start of the next month, you'll have another payment go out, as they don't have time to stop it, but that's all.

Something worth mentioning is that you are still covered by the insurance componet of Denplan (Emergency fees, trauma insurance etc) for 3 months after you cancel your payments.

zar wrote:

If you both from one end of the country to the other every couple of years will you just start paying another dentist or is it a national scheme? ...

You can transfer dentist under Denplan, but it is more complicated than Denplan make out!

The dentists are all individuals, with their own fee scales, so altough you will, or should be in the same category, you will almost certainly be paying a different amount. Also, if dentist 1 has missed something, or something goes wrong between dentist 1 and dentist 2, it is down to dentist 1 (The one who has been taking your payments) to fix it. Dentist 2 is quite entitled to charge a fee if it is too inconvienient for you to get back to see the original dentist.

Therefore, the best way to change dentist on Denplan, is to have your final check-up with dentist one just before you leave, and then get on the books of dentist 2 as soon as you get to your new location!

As I've said though, choose the dentist first, not the payment method. Find a good dentist through other peoples recommendations, and when you're there see what payment method he/she recommends for you. Pay as you go is certainly the simplest, it's just be prepared for expensive stuff. Plans have the advantage of insurance should you suffer an injury, which at 24, is quite common!!!!! (You foolish young things!!)

zar wrote:

Or are these circumstances where PAYG is best - then if you don't get on with the dentist (no family etc. to ask for recommendations) you don't go back there....

This is certainly true, but your first check up you may well have to pay for even if it's a Denplan transfer. Some dentists do that check up at a reduced rate though. Even with no relations in an area, I'm sure you'll soon get friends, neighbours, work colleagues etc.

zar wrote:

I was put off even trying to find one. But now I think I should be brave (both on the money front and the scary bit of actually going!) and try and register with a non-nhs dentist...

From 18-24 is not an eternity. If you hadn't had much done as a kid, I doubt even debauched student life will have done that much damage to them! If they feel OK and you're not aware of major holes, they may well just need a really good clean up.

If student life was all Mars bars & Coke (As in cola!!) be afraid!!!

Just kidding!

Toothsmith

pandaonmyshoulder wrote:

Oh so it's classed as yearly increase :mad:

What??

You asked if when you had a bad year, would your premium be put up - like car insurance.

The answer is no, unless it was a bad year because lots of extra things happened, rather than just routine maintenance. And that is not very common. Especially if the dentist is giving out the preventative message, and you are listening


However, costs do go up, and so, to keep in line, do the fees. Once a year.

This is not JUST for the people who have had their bottom in the dentist's chair the longest though, it's spread over everybody!

Now stop hitting the little red man button and chill out! If you have anger, direct it at the politicians. They are the ones responsible for this mess.

rwgibson98

Toothsmith wrote:

...If the end user has NO motivation to keep their treatment needs to a minimum - and some element of cost is always a great motivator - then the system is doomed to spiral out of control as costs soar....

Toothsmith wrote:

...However, costs do go up, and so, to keep in line, do the fees. Once a year. This is not JUST for the people who have had their bottom in the dentist's chair the longest though, it's spread over everybody!...

Yeah, my trouble with this argument (and we have decended into politics now) is that it sucks.

Let's apply this "cost motivator" argument to medical General Practice. It can't be nice being a GP, having to look at people who are ill, having to work under a government framework that we might not agree with, so let's get all the GPs to form a cosy little co-operative, called DocPlan. Then we can get them to write to all their patients, explaining that they need to pay £50 a month just to retain the right to see a GP when they're in need of treatment. Oh, and any treatment will be charged at cost, plus admin fees to the surgery manager and to DocPlan, plus a little bit of profit to the GP for having to leave the NHS. Finally, that they have no choice but to sign up because all the doctors in the area have done the same.

Consequences? Smokers will have to pay a premium for their smoking-related illnesses. People who are obese will pay more when they need more treatment, that'll serve them right for their unhealthy diet. Anyone unfortunate enough to inherit genetic disorders from their parents will hope that there was a little bit of money put aside for them to cover their medical needs. Old people shouldn't live that long if they can't afford their medicines and nursing care, that'll stop them from putting a strain on the country's economy. As for these terrible diseases that take many thousands of lives each year, cruelly and slowly, well that's just financial bad luck. We can refer you to a colleague that does a good deal on euthanasia, which'll work out cheaper and better value in the long run.

DocPlan will have a special policy for anyone wanting to bring a child into the world, which would cover the ante-natal checks, scans, pregnancy advice, midwifery and nursing services, as well as the vaccinations that the child needs. If you need to ask the price, are you sure you can afford it?

Shall we move this argument on to a pay-as-you-go Emergency department at the local hospital? Nurses would love the bonuses they'd get each Friday night from all the drunkards coming in (...and any innocent bystander caught up in the town's bars, well they shouldn't have been out if they couldn't afford the healthcare provision). Road traffic accident victims would, of course, be able to sue the person responsible for their injury costs, but just in case they can't be traced, that'll be a £1,000 deposit towards the diagnosis and initial treatment fees before we even look at cleaning that blood.

Enough? This argument doesn't work because it's not how we do things in this country. You may feel that we should, but we don't.

Imperfect though it is,the NHS works. Furthermore, I don't feel that I'm being idealist in thinking that it's not impossible to provide a functioning NHS dental service, funded centrally by taxpayers. Why should we have to have

Toothsmith wrote:

...a dental service for people who can't afford private care...

??? A two-tier NHS (one for the haves, another for the have-nots) was Conservative party policy through the late nineties, and I don't recall William Hague being elected in to Number 10.

All public servants - including doctors, dentists, teachers, police and the armed forces - deserve a fair deal, and perhaps this new NHS Dentistry system is unfair, and flawed. (We haven't heard the other side of this story.)

However, a mass walk-out by the dentists from providing an essential public service, which leaves the British public with no option but pay for private care, is not something that will be forgotten. You can hardly blame the government for trying to bring in foreign dentists in order to keep things going, though you might argue that prevention is better than cure.

Like the "cost motivator" argument, this action by dentists sucks.

[/Rant]

Toothsmith

Once the Government has got away with getting dentistry out of the NHS, DocPlan is coming!

We're on the same side here RW, it's just I see it from the inside!

Dentists are leaving the NHS, because our practices don't run on fresh air & politician's sound bytes. Also, some of the things expected from the new contract,are, frankly, bad practice.

It will not be the Department of Health that will be sued if someone develops a problem that could have been picked up if check-up intervals weren't lengthened. It will be the dentist that told that patient that a year would be fine for his next check-up.

Let's not forget that the dentists that are leaving the NHS now are the ones that have really stuck with it despite it's previous problems. From the critisism they are now getting, I bet they wish they'd left years ago like many of their colleagues. The NHS has shafted them, and so are some of the more vocal patients. Of course, they also have the better informed patients that are probably grateful they stuck with it for so long, and appreciate the care they get at those practices, and understand why they have to do it. That is why these practices wil not be boycotted, and will still survive to provide good care into the future.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the NHS DOES'T work. The semblance of function it portrays is just there because of the goodwill of the (Highly stressed and overworked staff) that give their all to it

How often do you see ward closures, Hospitals having to cancel operations because they are over budget, emergency treatment being cut back, PCT's in financial difficulties? This is not a good system.

The problem is that no politician in their right mind is going to suggest scrapping it and starting again because the country is full of knee-jerk voters who latch onto stupid phrases like two-tier health system without engaging their brains and thinking about what they're saying!

If the NHS in it's curent form is rebuilt, it does not mean all of the stuff you have mentioned above. It is not one or the other.

There are lots of sensible systems of State subsidised healthcare floating about in between. Most of Europe have much better systems. France is excellent.

There is nothing wrong with 2 tier, as long as the bottom tier is functioning and adequate for it's need. I'd much rather have that than a one tier system where everyone is forced to accept crap!

jazzyjustlaw

I dont like most dentists and I believe Private and NHS dentistry and Hospitals are as bad as each other.

Firstly I pay £20.00 per month to denplan and a lot more for my private healh cover.

Under NHS dentists I had a filling nearly every time I went. I kept changing dentist then was recommended this one. I dont really like him but my teeth are really nice. He saw my daughter when she was growing up for free but rushed her in and out and when I called him out one Saturday he was really unpleasant but they all are. I know they go to uni - and as a trainee lawyer so did I but I know mine and at least one other make a mint. However, since I have been with hin about 8 years I have only one filling!

In relation to private health care, I believe the actual operation is better under NHS but the after care is crap but the operations in my opinion are crap if done private but the perks i.e. en suite bathroom etc is good and the after care is better than NHS. I must add though that I blame the nurses I have been left to wet the bed in a recent op in an NHS hospital. The nurses just sat on that backsides all night stuffing thier faces and I was a lucky one. Those old people in there are just left. There were a few nurses that were okay.

Just for the record I have been a care assistant and left because people just sat and left patients and laughed at me for being so caring.

rwgibson98

Here we go then:

Toothsmith wrote:

...Once the Government has got away with getting dentistry out of the NHS...

So dentists are to Blair as coal miners were to Thatcher?!

Toothsmith wrote:

...these practices wil not be boycotted, and will still survive to provide good care into the future....

The practices can't be boycotted because people need dentists!

Is there any other public service where this behaviour would be tolerated? If all the teachers at state schools in, say, Berkshire, decided to quit the system and formed TeachPlan, and forced parents to pay for teaching their children, there would be uproar (directed at the teachers).

If the West Midlands Police decided that they didn't agree with a set of reforms, quit the service en masse and formed ServeAndProtectPlan, a private organisation which required protection money just in case you were a victim of crime, the consequences don't bear thinking about.

So why is it acceptable for the dentists to walk away?

Toothsmith wrote:

...I don't know if you've noticed, but the NHS DOES'T work. The semblance of function it portrays is just there because of the goodwill of the (Highly stressed and overworked staff) that give their all to it...

No, you're wrong, and I see living proof of this every day. It does work, it could work better, and you either believe in it or you don't. This is a polar argument, and perhaps we should agree to disagree on this.

Toothsmith wrote:

...How often do you see ward closures, Hospitals having to cancel operations because they are over budget, emergency treatment being cut back, PCT's in financial difficulties? This is not a good system...

Do you mean to say that it could be managed better? Do you imply that the public sector management is not as effective as that in the commercial sector? Why don't we scrap all public bodies then?

Toothsmith wrote:

...The problem is that no politician in their right mind is going to suggest scrapping it and starting again...

Well, the electorate might question the cost of writing off a system that is already in place, rather than trying to reform it and make it work better.

Toothsmith wrote:

...the country is full of knee-jerk voters who latch onto stupid phrases like two-tier health system without engaging their brains and thinking about what they're saying!...

I can confirm that my brain was fully engaged when I said that. If you know of a better name for a service with two levels, where you get a choice of a basic service or paying more for a "nicer" one, let's hear it. And yes, even the people who don't look after their teeth, who live in council estates and who can still find money for Mr Murdoch's television service get a vote.

Toothsmith wrote:

...If the NHS in it's curent form is rebuilt, it does not mean all of the stuff you have mentioned above. It is not one or the other.

I'm sorry, I don't follow you on this point. Did you mean my DocPlan idea? That was meant to be a (ridiculous) extension of the private dentistry scheme. I really hope none of that comes anywhere near happening. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on rebuilding the NHS.

Toothsmith wrote:

...There are lots of sensible systems of State subsidised healthcare floating about in between. Most of Europe have much better systems. France is excellent...

Great. You mentioned in one of your earlier posts about having an informed debate about the level of healthcare that the British state should provide, which services should be included in NHS provision and which should be paid for. We could talk about Opticians, and whether the balance between paid-for and free eye care is right. We could talk about whether the economy could afford to run the NHS ad infinitum; you have also previously highlighted the anomoly of prescription charges. All fair points for discussion, and all opinions are as valid as anyone else's.

Toothsmith wrote:

...There is nothing wrong with 2 tier, as long as the bottom tier is functioning and adequate for it's need. I'd much rather have that than a one tier system where everyone is forced to accept crap!...

(I thought you said that "two tier" is stupid phrase?) I'm not saying I disagree with you on this, I don't feel that the NHS could or should be a "luxury" service, nor should anyone be forced to accept crap, or more politely, a second-class/second-best service. The emphasis on your last point should be on functioning, and until this week, I felt that the NHS Dentisty service functioned well.

Toothsmith

jazzyjustlaw wrote:

I dont like most dentists and I believe Private and NHS dentistry and Hospitals are as bad as each other.

Firstly I pay £20.00 per month to denplan and a lot more for my private healh cover.

Under NHS dentists I had a filling nearly every time I went. I kept changing dentist then was recommended this one. I dont really like him but my teeth are really nice. He saw my daughter when she was growing up for free but rushed her in and out and when I called him out one Saturday he was really unpleasant but they all are. I know they go to uni - and as a trainee lawyer so did I but I know mine and at least one other make a mint. However, since I have been with hin about 8 years I have only one filling!

I think you really need to sort your head out a bit here

You don't know 'all dentists', or even 'most' of them.

You have a dentist who is really doing his job well (Your mouth feels great and you've not needed a filling in ages), yet you begrudge him a decent living!

He was a bit grumpy once when you called him out on a Saturday (We all have bad days!! Do you know what was happening in his life at that moment?)
But he came out I assume? In the new NHS contract, it's only severe bleeding or swelling likely to stop you breathing that will count as an emergency needing treatment on the NHS. Everything else - including severe pain, even in a child, will have to wait until you can be seen in normal hours!

There are some people who aren't that keen on lawyers too you know!!! Personally I wouldn't be so narrow minded as to lump them all together

Toothsmith

rwgibson98 wrote:

The emphasis on your last point should be on functioning, and until this week, I felt that the NHS Dentisty service functioned well.

That says it all! It's been falling apart at a rate of knots since 1992 at least. I think you need to be better informed.

DocPlan, unfortunately, is not a ridiculous suggestion, and is nearer than you think.

Dentists are different to teachers, police, doctors, hospitals in one big respect. We own the infrastructure.

We buy the practices and are financially responsible for them.

A headmaster does not take out a loan to buy his school, and employ the teachers. A Chief Constable does not have to put his hand in his pocket if he has a patrol car written off.

Dentists do!

Dentists sub-contract their services to the NHS. If the fees aren't right, we cannot afford to provide the service. If my practice was re-possessed, it would be of no use to anybody.

And I didn't say 'two-tier' was a stupid phrase. Implying that a 'two-tier' service is bad is the stupid thing. Everything else in life has multiple tiers. Why should healthcare not? Just so long as the lowest level covers the basics, it's fine.

The NHS needs a controlled demolition,and a structured planned rebuilding. If this doesn't happen it will collapse, and all we will have is an american style system which is fine if you've got money. Useless if you haven't.

I do not want that any more than you.

jazzyjustlaw

Toothsmith wrote:

I think you really need to sort your head out a bit here

You don't know 'all dentists', or even 'most' of them.

You have a dentist who is really doing his job well (Your mouth feels great and you've not needed a filling in ages), yet you begrudge him a decent living!

He was a bit grumpy once when you called him out on a Saturday (We all have bad days!! Do you know what was happening in his life at that moment?)
But he came out I assume? In the new NHS contract, it's only severe bleeding or swelling likely to stop you breathing that will count as an emergency needing treatment on the NHS. Everything else - including severe pain, even in a child, will have to wait until you can be seen in normal hours!

There are some people who aren't that keen on lawyers too you know!!! Personally I wouldn't be so narrow minded as to lump them all together

I do know a lot of dentists actually . Quite a few have really expensive houses, cars, sunseeker yachts. Good luck to them but they only deserve that if they care and look after our teeth. I am saying that even if I paid my dentist £100.00 each time I saw him he would still spend 5 mins with me. Yes your right about lawyers. No the dentist did not come out until the next day. I do not begrudge him a living. The dentist just looks in my mouth twice a year. I have the hygenist 4 times. I am happy to pay. I believe I didnt need fillings before and that the NHS ones ripped me off. I really do not agree with the dentists NHS or private and yes I will lump them together until I come accross one that spends more than 5 minutes looking at my teeth.

The reason why my teeth are in good condition is because I look after them.

Someone somewhere said that even people are council estates who dont brush their teeth get to vote. I cannot believe someone used such people in their analogy. Most people in council estates are nice I know I grew up on one. Yes me and I went to law school - what controversy.