Liability Order, Non-domestic rates, bailiff involved

uh_oh_3

Hi everyone,

I am running a small business (Furniture shop) which has been running since dec 98.
This year the business has run into serious problems due to an increase in costs, and a dramatic fall in sales.

Amongst other problems I am know in trouble with my business rates bill.

I made some payments on time earlier in the year, but then fell behind. The business rates people sent me a letter saying that they would be obtaining a liability order on 6th oct 08. So I phoned them and agreed to pay the rest by instalments. The first payment of £130 was to be made by 10th Oct 08, and then a further 5 payments of £130 a month to clear the balance. This would then clear the 08-09 bill. I have no other arrears with them. They said that they would still be obtaining a liability order, but as long as I kept to the repayments no further action would be taken.

So I posted them a cheque for £130 on 8th Oct, and gave the matter no further thought.

On Monday 20th Oct the bailiff arrived.

First of all he tried to excerise a levy on my stock, which he was unable to do. (*1 see below), then he tried to seize my car, which he was also unable to do (*2 see below). The bailiff was extremely threatening, refused to accept any arrangement to pay. And said as he couldn't seize my other goods he would go to my house and take away my furniture.

I pointed out that I had made (and kept to) an arrangement to pay with the council. But he was not interested. I phoned the council on the spot and found that they have never received my cheque. I know that people often claim to have a sent a cheque when they hadn't, but I genuinely had sent a cheque.

While the bailiff was still at my premises (he was there nearly an hour) the post arrived with a letter from the council saying that a liability order had been obtained. This was dated 7th Oct 08. It had arrived 13 days after the date on the letter, apparently first having been sent to the wrong address (the council had failed to put the name of my business on the letter, despite it appearing on my business rates bill, and with the bill being for business rates you could reasonably expect it to require a business name).

The bailiff then left empty handed, and phoned back 10 minutes after leaving saying that he would be back in 14 days.

I really badly need some advice.

1- I haven't contacted the council since Monday as I have had a nightmarish week so far. I am unsure what I need to do and don't want to say the wrong thing to them.

2- I thought that the council had to give me 14 days notice after a liability order had been granted to allow me to pay before involving bailiffs (and their fees), but the bailiff told me that they had been passed the file on the 10th oct 08. The council had not bothered to contact me to tell me my payment had not arrived with them.

3- the bailiff is a certificated bailiff, and as I now understand it (after doing research this week), his fees should be on a set scale, set by HMCS rules. According to what I can find the fees should be £42.50 for applying a levy (which is what he attempted but failed to do), whereas he actually added costs of £51 levy fee, and £304.50 removal costs. Which as I understand it is not correct, but I don't know what to do about this. The bill is now £1,261.50.

4- Last year I also had the same bailiff company collect unpaid non-domestic rates. Due to confusion with a retrospective application for small business rates relief, and a reassessment of the rental value of the property I had a bill for £71 I was unaware of, to which the bailiff added fees of £310, even though the first I knew of the outstanding debt was when the bailiff arrived, and I paid him in full on the spot. Are these fees excessive and is there anything I can do to dispute them now.

5- I was hoping to have got enough money in shop takings this week to pay the bill before the deadline was up, but so far this week the only money I have had in was a cheque for £50. And now I'm really starting to panic.

I really don't know what to do. The bailiff is due to come back on 2nd November so I need to do something quickly. If anyone has any advice I would really appreciate it. (This is my first ever post on these forums, though I have been coming on here as a guest to read the forums for some time).



*1 Because I am in arrears (4 months) with the landlord I had already agreed with the landlord that he take possession of all my stock, under the agreement that as and when I sold some stock I would reduce his bill. This meant that the landlord (who I am on friendly terms with) would be guaranteed to get his money, and make all my stock safe from other creditors until I could get back on my feet. He has a legal right to do this, as prescribed in the lease, and I had this arrangement in writing.

*2 I had checked this out in advance, because I knew that sooner or later I may have problems with bailiffs. Under section 54 of the magistrates rules, bailiffs cannot seize your car if you are self-employed. The car is only worth about £900 anyway.

RAS

Hi got to go but heres a few things to be getting on with

Can you have a look at the web-site in a moment, then Pm Herbie21.

She needs to know the following

What is the amount of the debt?

Which firm of bailiffs?

Can you send her a pm with the name of the bailiff so that she can check to ensure that he is certificated.

She can also advise on charges and may be able to sort last year's as well.

www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

Also

List of contacts below, nicked from Tiger.

I suspect that with this being business related, you would be best to contact the Business Debtline.

Your first port of call should be to contact one of the Debt Charities; see links below. Their services are free; they have no vested interest to serve; their advisors are professionally trained and the advice they give will be objective and in your best interests only.

CCCS 0800 138 1111 National Debtline 0808 808 4000 Business Debt Line 0800 197 6026 CAB – Contact your local office and ask to speak to a Specialist Financial Advisor. Insolvency Service- 0845 602 9848

uh_oh_3

Thank you very much, I'll PM Herbie21 right now

uh_oh_3

I have PM'd Herbie21 but no reply so far.

Should I try and contact the rates dept direct to make an offer of payment? Or would I be be better off dealing directly with the bailiff (who was quite hostile)?

He said he would be back on Monday 3rd November so I'm running out of time.

Any suggestions please?

RAS

Hi

She has not posted since the 23rd, although she was on here yesterday.

Can I suggest that you ring the number on the web-site and speak to them?

uh_oh_3

ok will do

uh_oh_3

Ok, just an update;

I spoke to Herbie21 on the phone, and can't thank her enough!

She drafted a letter and faxed it to me which I then signed and faxed to the Bailiff company.

I then phoned the Bailiff and told him I had faxed a letter to his office.

He then said that faxing to his office was of no use as I need to make any payment arrangements with him. (Unbelievable, he seemed to be saying that I can't fax stuff to him on the fax number he gave me lol)

He said that he would come this week to take my car. The car is not parked anywhere where he will find it. He tried to place a levy on the car before, even though I pointed out that under clause 54 of the magistrates rules he was not allowed to do so because I am self-employed. But he seems to have little interest in what the actual law is, and is behaving as he sees fit. The car is pretty much worthless anyway, as it is 12 years old, with 192,000 miles on the clock, the back wing all stoved in, and it is making a worrying noise when driven.

In the letter it was also pointed out that his fees are somewhat excessive, being above and beyond what they are allowed to charge. If they won't reduce the fees, then I will file a "Form 4 complaint" which should get the fees back, and apparently in a few cases I have found on the internet might end up with the bailiff losing his certificate and bond. Now that would be satisfying

I have found several other small businesses in my area that have been charged similar fees by the same firm of bailiffs, so if I am successful they will all be claiming their fees back.

If that is also successful I will then be tempted to get a list of all liability orders issued in the area, and write to everyone pointing out what they need to do to reclaim their fees.

Vengeance will be mine

uh_oh_3

I've done some more digging on the internet and found something useful.

The Bailiff said that he had placed a levy on my car, but if he does this he then has to do 1 or 3 things;
1- Immediately remove the vehicle.
2- Achieve "close possession", which means that he has to leave someone guarding the car until it can be removed (he may be able to do this by clamping it, but did not do so).
3- Obtain a "walking possession" by getting me to sign a "walking possession order" which I refused to sign.

Because he did not do one of these 3 things, he therefore by default achieved a status of "release from levy". He can charge a fee of £24.50 for releasing goods from levy. But once released from levy he can only renew it by physically touching the vehicle. As I have now moved the vehicle to a safe place (where he will not find it). He will be unable to do this.

Because the vehicle is for my sole use, and is used in the course of my business (for visiting customers etc) he can't levy on the vehicle anyway.

I thought that this information was worth putting up, as it may be of use to others.

letsmakeamark

uh_oh wrote: »

I've done some more digging on the internet and found something useful.

The Bailiff said that he had placed a levy on my car, but if he does this he then has to do 1 or 3 things;
1- Immediately remove the vehicle.
2- Achieve "close possession", which means that he has to leave someone guarding the car until it can be removed (he may be able to do this by clamping it, but did not do so).
3- Obtain a "walking possession" by getting me to sign a "walking possession order" which I refused to sign.

Because he did not do one of these 3 things, he therefore by default achieved a status of "release from levy". He can charge a fee of £24.50 for releasing goods from levy. But once released from levy he can only renew it by physically touching the vehicle. As I have now moved the vehicle to a safe place (where he will not find it). He will be unable to do this.

Because the vehicle is for my sole use, and is used in the course of my business (for visiting customers etc) he can't levy on the vehicle anyway.

I thought that this information was worth putting up, as it may be of use to others.

he can still remove it. Sell it to a mate for £1 and back date the agreement.

uh_oh_3

Today I received a letter from the bailiffs in response to the faxed letter I sent them last Monday (7 days ago)

It says that the matter is being dealt with by one of their officers, and all queries must be directed to him.

So they have ignored my letter completely, even though I faxed it to the fax number that is on the paperwork he gave me.

Herbie21

As soon as you receive a response, please do let us know.