Employment law - part time staff query

SomeBozo

It is not rubbish

Sorry, but it is rubbish.

This the problem we have with MSE. We have people not knowing the law quoting things that is wrong.

The law says that if you need to take dependants leave, the effect on the employer is irrelevant.

Again rubbish.

Employers will have a "special leave" policy or a "Carers policy".

This allows staff to leave abruptly to deal with child/carer/domestic emergencies. Whats the clinch of the issue here is that its a employer defined policy.

I, as a employer (who manages 1200 staff directly and many more indirectly) understand that from time to time there will be occasions where a staff member needs to leave to work to attend to an emergency in their personal life.

I understand this! I have a family too.

However, if we allowed a blanket acceptance of this, we would have chaos, from a operatianal point of view.

So, we have a policy.

Anyone can leave when they want, but they have to have a handover of work and staff. This can happen 4 hours after the event. Or on the way out of the building. Whatever. BUT IT MUST HAPPEN.

Bozo

Incisor

SomeBozo wrote: »

Sorry, but it is rubbish.

This the problem we have with MSE. We have people not knowing the law quoting things that is wrong.



Again rubbish.

Employers will have a "special leave" policy or a "Carers policy".

This allows staff to leave abruptly to deal with child/carer/domestic emergencies. Whats the clinch of the issue here is that its a employer defined policy.

I, as a employer (who manages 1200 staff directly and many more indirectly) understand that from time to time there will be occasions where a staff member needs to leave to work to attend to an emergency in their personal life.

I understand this! I have a family too.

However, if we allowed a blanket acceptance of this, we would have chaos, from a operatianal point of view.

So, we have a policy.

Anyone can leave when they want, but they have to have a handover of work and staff. This can happen 4 hours after the event. Or on the way out of the building. Whatever. BUT IT MUST HAPPEN.

Bozo

Hang on. If you are talking law, then quote some. I am just going on a straight consideration of the concept of a contract. I think you are confusing the specifics of the employment contract in your business with the law.

What is the OP contracted for? Hours or a set of responsibilities? If it is responsibility TO the employer, then provided an orderly shutdown has been achieved [eg banking cash, securing the shop], then if the employee goes at contracted time, then there would be no real grounds for complaint on the part of the employer. Even if the employer is responsible FOR something such as care of the elderly, the employer is at fault if staff are not in place for orderly handover - and there surely should be some emergency arrangement to deal with failure of cover.

AFAICS, if the contract is for straight hours, then the employee is free to go at the end of the contracted hours. It requires a contract condition to enforce anything different.

surreysaver

SomeBozo wrote: »

Anyone can leave when they want, but they have to have a handover of work and staff. This can happen 4 hours after the event. Or on the way out of the building. Whatever. BUT IT MUST HAPPEN.

That's what I said. I expect you forever loose discplinaries on appeal as you obviously do not listen to evidence at a hearing!

SomeBozo

surreysaver

That's what I said.

No. You didnt. You said:

think you are wrong there. Legislation specifically states you can walk off from your job if childcare arrangements break down.

which is wrong.

GOOGLE "Special leave policy" and read anything on the first 10 pages and see if you disgaree with all that too.

Bozo

whiteroom184

Hi Judygarland

also as an employer (and as somebody who got dismissed after 51 weeks of employment), i have the following to add;-
whatever people say about emergency carer leave or time off for dependants policies it is slightly irrelevant as your boss could just make up another reason for your dismissall (insolence, refusal to complete a reasonable request etc), and again because of your length of service - no tribunal, unless self/union funded but very lengthy, around breech of trust, implied contractual terms, (including implied hours, only relevant if you have worked the same shift pattern for a period of 13 weeks or more without alteration or overtime). the only other way you would get them to a tribunal is sex discrimination, which has a legal precident, remember as a rule women are the primary childcare providers in society and as such to impose restrictions and conditions on working hours/patterns which would be to the detriment of wither sex would qualify. Additionally please remember contracted hours are very different to required hours, check which you have

but to be honest my advice, would simply be to request a formal sit-down with a line manager you have a good relationship with and be honest. Dont get bitter or look for ways to stick one up'em so to speak as you will end up worse off. From my point of view (and i do have a 3yr old) nothing cheeses me off more than an employee who has swallowed the working rights book telling me what they can't do. i am far more responsive to people who say but i can do this and specifically this is where i can be flexible

hope this helps

judygarland

whiteroom184 wrote: »

Hi Judygarland

also as an employer (and as somebody who got dismissed after 51 weeks of employment), i have the following to add;-
whatever people say about emergency carer leave or time off for dependants policies it is slightly irrelevant as your boss could just make up another reason for your dismissall (insolence, refusal to complete a reasonable request etc), and again because of your length of service - no tribunal, unless self/union funded but very lengthy, around breech of trust, implied contractual terms, (including implied hours, only relevant if you have worked the same shift pattern for a period of 13 weeks or more without alteration or overtime). the only other way you would get them to a tribunal is sex discrimination, which has a legal precident, remember as a rule women are the primary childcare providers in society and as such to impose restrictions and conditions on working hours/patterns which would be to the detriment of wither sex would qualify. Additionally please remember contracted hours are very different to required hours, check which you have

but to be honest my advice, would simply be to request a formal sit-down with a line manager you have a good relationship with and be honest. Dont get bitter or look for ways to stick one up'em so to speak as you will end up worse off. From my point of view (and i do have a 3yr old) nothing cheeses me off more than an employee who has swallowed the working rights book telling me what they can't do. i am far more responsive to people who say but i can do this and specifically this is where i can be flexible

hope this helps

Thanks Whiteroom.

I have worked for them for 11 months and my contracted hours are 9-3 everyday. When I attended the interview I said that I could possibly do extra hours to help out now and again, provided I had a weeks notice to sort out childcare arrangements. I have been very flexible and accommodated all requests but then had an incident two weeks ago where my colleague came into work and asked if she could have a few hours off to deal with a personal matter. She stated that she would probably be back before I left. 3pm came and went and I then had to go to pick up my child. If I had been given a couple of days notice I could have probably sorted something out.

My contract states my hours but all of the company's contracts say extra hours as deemed necessary by the business. Some of the other staff can be working in excess of 80 hours a week!

Thanks for the info. At the moment my husbands employment is looking dodgy and he could be out of work in a couple of weeks so I am keeping quiet and not moaning too much. I will need the extra hours and obviously OH will be at home, so no problem with childcare!

whiteroom184

judygarland wrote: »

Thanks Whiteroom.

I have worked for them for 11 months and my contracted hours are 9-3 everyday. as long as you work your contracted hours then they have no grounds When I attended the interview I said that I could possibly possibly is not a guaranteed term and as such your employer should not have taken it as such if at all do extra hours to help out now and again, provided I had a weeks notice to sort out childcare arrangements weeks notice clearly not given in the scenario previously given. I have been very flexible and accommodated all requests but then had an incident two weeks ago where my colleague came into work and asked if she could have a few hours off to deal with a personal matter unless you are her line manager she must have agreed this with another person, as such it was upto the agreeing individual to arrange cover if required, upon which they should have requested your agreement to provide this cover. She stated that she would probably be back before I left as above. 3pm came and went and I then had to go to pick up my child. If I had been given a couple of days notice I could have probably sorted something out.

My contract states my hours but all of the company's contracts say extra hours as deemed necessary by the business. Some of the other staff can be working in excess of 80 hours a week! more fool them

Thanks for the info. At the moment my husbands employment is looking dodgy and he could be out of work in a couple of weeks so I am keeping quiet and not moaning too much. I will need the extra hours and obviously OH will be at home, so no problem with childcare!

it is a really difficult time at the moment for everyone financially just please try and ride it out dont do something now through pride and principle, thats what cost me my job, i.e i knew they were wrong and i was right, but i was that stubborn they rushed through every dismissal proceedure and ignored acas...........be warned........

SomeBozo

judygarland

I see you ignored my posts!

I think 2 things went wrong for you.

1) You allowed the other person to leave early and you got stung on it. Should that person have asked you? Do you have the authority to say "yes"?

2) You left work at 3, leaving no staff and you got stung on it. Should you not have contacted your line manager before leaving?

Bozo

surreysaver

surreysaver wrote: »

It is not rubbish. The law says that if you need to take dependants leave, the effect on the employer is irrelevant. Yes, you need to inform your manager at the earliest opportunity - perhaps this is where the OP has fallen down, but you are allowed the time off. If you home is flooded that is different - a flooded house is not a dependant person.

That's what I said. Read it, Bozo.