Lapland New Forest Scam. How to get money back...

EdnaCloud

JH808 wrote: »

Well, got letter from tesco credit card, finally... sorry, as each ticket was £25 you're not getting anything out of us!!!!!

Jo, thanks for posting, unfortunate as your message is.
Firstly, if it was a 'family' ticket it is one transaction, so that could be argued.
Secondly, you could point out that many, many other people have been refunded and that their refusal to do so is an example of the shoddiness of their service and you will take your business elsewhere (my opinion. NOT impartial advice)
Thirdly, if the refusal was because of the constraints of section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act (1974) I would suggest demanding a chargeback. see GomerPyle's guide at:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=17633351#post17633351
and use the referral to the Financial Ombudsman as a threat. But if you do so do carry it through.

Could easily give up and pay it off...any advise?

RANT
Please do not give up. It will take time and effort and there is no guarantee of success but we must impress upon these callous money traders that they have a responsibility and they should look at refunding those affected before doling out billions in personal bonuses which are only the reward of failure. If we stand together and fight, offering each other support and help where possible we may be heard.
UNRANT

Have you received a letter from Grant Thornton informing you of the forthcoming creditors' meeting? If so be wary of completing that just now, it may affect any chargeback you initiate, but DO PLEASE call the card merchant and demand that they initiate a chargeback.


*Note* I am not an expert in this area and offer suggestions and opinion, if you are not sure of how to proceed please seek impartial expert advice, but please do not give up - that is letting the scam organiser and his bankers off the hook.

Edna

JH808

Thank you - I will prepare a reply letter this evening - let's giv'em a fight!:j
Jo

neil_fowler

While waiting to see what Trading Standards had to say to Gorginoo, I decided to ask Consumer Direct for a response to the issues. This is the inconclusive response from them:

“With reference to your recent email, as it is possible that your credit card company will take back the funds rewarded to you, it may be in your interest to register as a creditor regardless. This will provide you with the option of recovering any available assets if your card provider retracts their charge back while at the same time allowing you to reject any offers in the event that funds are available to creditors. Alternatively it may be in your interest to discuss the possibilities of your card provider retracting the charge back and make your decision based on this discussion.”

I also decided to ask a few questions of Grant Thornton. Here’s what I asked:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I recently received a letter from you regarding the forthcoming creditors' meeting in respect of Lapland New Forest Limited.

I would be grateful if you could clarify the following points for me:

- If I wish to attempt to claim a refund of monies for tickets which were unfulfilled as a result of the business closure, do I need to actively lodge a claim with yourselves or can I assume you are already aware of my creditor status and details as you have written to me as a creditor?

- As I am pursuing a chargeback refund via my credit card provider, what is the situation if I receive this? My understanding is that if I receive such a refund it may be retracted by the card provider if it is unable to settle the issue to its satisfaction within a specific time period. Can I also register as a creditor if I receive a chargeback so I am covered for either eventuality?

- Is it correct, as I have read in the media, that the payment card processor company RBS Streamline froze the Lapland New Forest Limited account so that company has not had access to all ticket purchase monies?

I would be grateful for a response as soon as possible please


Here’s their response:

If you intend to make a claim against the company you need to do it in writing - for example by using the claim form that was included with our letter.

If you lodge a claim in the liquidation but are refunded in full by your credit card provider they will effectively "stand in your shoes" and receive whatever dividend is payable in the liquidation.

What cannot happen is that you get paid from both sources.

The operation of the company's banking facilities will be investigated by the liquidators when appointed on 16th February.


Any thoughts/reactions?

whitewing

Neil,

My thoughts are that Grant Thornton only partially answer your question. It's a woolly answer. It sounds like if you lodge a claim with Grant Thornton, your card company may still refund you in full. Then your card company becomes a creditor with Grant Thornton (presumably automatically as a result of your claim form with Grant Thornton). Your card company would then potentially receive a full, partial or zero refund themselves of the cost of your tickets.

I would maybe ask again if that is what their response means.

I would also ask Grant Thornton specifically to confirm that if you fill in the Grant Thornton claim will this prevent you from being able to receive a refund via chargeback?

Point out that you don't expect to be refunded twice anyway, but that you want to maximise your chances of being refunded, and what is the best way to do that?

whitewing

neil_fowler wrote: »

While waiting to see what Trading Standards had to say to Gorginoo, I decided to ask Consumer Direct for a response to the issues. This is the inconclusive response from them:

“With reference to your recent email, as it is possible that your credit card company will take back the funds rewarded to you, it may be in your interest to register as a creditor regardless. This will provide you with the option of recovering any available assets if your card provider retracts their charge back while at the same time allowing you to reject any offers in the event that funds are available to creditors. Alternatively it may be in your interest to discuss the possibilities of your card provider retracting the charge back and make your decision based on this discussion.”



Again, it is beginning to sound from both Consumer Direct and Grant Thornton that you would be able to register as a creditor AND follow the chargeback route. However, nobody is prepared to say this for definite. You would also need to know whether the bank would be less likely to give you a chargeback refund if they knew that you were registered as a creditor, but I suppose there is still the ombudsman option. This is all just my opinion. It is disgraceful that there are no proper guidelines for these scenarios. Trading Standards and Consumer Direct should know for definite, and then the accountants and banks should be following these guidelines.

If your MP is any good, I would be inclined to take the issue to him/her.

whitewing

In the early hours of this morning, I sent an email to Mike Brewer of Grant Thornton with 20 questions that had arisen as a result of this thread. Considering that I am not a creditor and I only identified myself as 'whitewing from mse' with some brief vague background info, I am most impressed to have received a reply at 12.01pm. (I've been busy so have only now picked this up). I will copy and paste this info here before bedtime, but just need to rearrange the questions into sensible sections as on the original email I asked questions as they came up on the thread. So hold fire for a bit.

EdnaCloud

Well said whitewing, I hope you don't mind if I add some personal opinion:

whitewing wrote: »

Again, it is beginning to sound from both Consumer Direct and Grant Thornton that you would be able to register as a creditor AND follow the chargeback route. However, nobody is prepared to say this for definite.

This has been a concern for some time now, I would demand a definitive and legally binding response from TS but that's about as likely as my chocolate teapot working for more than one minute.
Alas, is seems to show TS as a bunch of toothless pen pushers as we have suspected for some time. What a waste of space (and OUR money). It is not likely that GT will provide any definite assurances in case it compromises their position as securing the maximum assets for the creditors, which is unfortunate but the way the system works.

You would also need to know whether the bank would be less likely to give you a chargeback refund if they knew that you were registered as a creditor,

I hate to be a doom-mongerer, but I think it is an odds-on certainty that if the bank get a sniff that one has registered as a creditor they will turn down the chargeback. As Gomer has said in the past, the chargeback system is not enshrined in law and is surrounded by the usual banking gobbledegook and get out clauses anyway, so I would suggest anyone registering as a creditor does not inform the bank, this as far as I'm aware, is not fraudulent as long as any successful chargeback is communicated to the liquidator. Likewise, registering as a creditor does not require one to inform the liquidator that recourse is being sought elswhwere until and unless it is successful.

But this avoids the nub of the matter, that being where do consumers get real, definitive advice? I just do not know.

but I suppose there is still the ombudsman option. This is all just my opinion. It is disgraceful that there are no proper guidelines for these scenarios. Trading Standards and Consumer Direct should know for definite, and then the accountants and banks should be following these guidelines.

If your MP is any good, I would be inclined to take the issue to him/her.

Again, well said. Keep demanding answers from Trading Standards, that is what they are for. PLEASE DO NOT GIVE UP.

EdnaCloud

whitewing wrote: »

In the early hours of this morning, I sent an email to Mike Brewer of Grant Thornton with 20 questions that had arisen as a result of this thread. Considering that I am not a creditor and I only identified myself as 'whitewing from mse' with some brief vague background info, I am most impressed to have received a reply at 12.01pm. (I've been busy so have only now picked this up). I will copy and paste this info here before bedtime, but just need to rearrange the questions into sensible sections as on the original email I asked questions as they came up on the thread. So hold fire for a bit.

We wait with baited breath, nice one whitewing! :T:beer:

whitewing

I decided against rearranging the questions in the email so that we could air some thoughts on the matter before we decide our next steps.

The following is the email received from Mike Brewer of Grant Thornton (who knew I was going to publish it). I have just removed some details of my email address and also some paragraphs in my original email. The questions 1-20 and their answers remain in their entirety:


Re: Questions For Michael Brewer Regarding Registering as a Creditor & the Liquidation of Lapland New Forest‏
From:
[IMG]file:////Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]Lapland Liquidation (Lapland.Liquidation@gtuk.com)
Sent:
09 February 2009 12:01:54
To:
Removed my email address


Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your email.

Whilst I note that you are not a creditor of the company, I have answered the questions raised in the hope that the answers may assistance to the ticket holders.

It is important to note that at this stage we are accepting claims purely for voting purposes at the meeting of creditors.

Claims will not be adjudicated for dividend purposes until the Liquidator is appointed and then only if funds become available for a dividend.

Any creditor that cannot attend the meeting or is unable to finalise their claim before the meeting will not lose the ability to claim - see further below.

You have correctly identified that we are currently advising the director how to put the company into liquidation. Some of the points raised below will be for the Liquidator(s) to deal with when appointed on the 16th February.

I regret that we cannot comment/advise on how ticket holders should progress claims against any other parties.

Kind regards

Mike Brewer





Removed my email address
09/02/2009 00:51

To

<lapland.liquidation@gtuk.com>

cc

Subject

Questions For Michael Brewer Regarding Registering as a Creditor & the Liquidation of Lapland New Forest








FAO Mr Michael Brewer

Dear Mr Brewer,

I am writing to you as 'whitewing' from the Lapland New Forest thread on the moneysavingexpert website. Unfortunately, I cannot use my real name as I have been a member of that forum for much longer than the New Forest thread has been around.

(Removed 3 paragraphs of my personal background info/explanation of pulling these questions out of the thread/my interest in this matter).

I do also intend, at some point, to email the Department for Business Enterprise & Regulatory Reform with some feedback (my observations from the thread itself). Your response may form part of that feedback.

1. Should a ticketholder who has not had a refund (via their bank), but who intends to take their complaint to the Ombudsman register as a creditor?

Yes

2. Should a ticketholder who has already had a refund (via section 75 or via the Visa chargeback scheme) ‘temporarily’ credited to their account, register as a creditor?

In short - No, only one party can make a claim for the same debt.

This assumes that (using your example) that Visa pays out in full and "stands in the shoes" of the ticket holder.

If the refund is reversed the ticket holder will revert to being the creditor able to make the claim.

3. Should a ticketholder who intends to claim via Visa Chargeback procedures, but who has not yet done so, register as a creditor?

Unless (and until) the ticket holder is paid from another source they are entitled to claim against the company.

4. If a Visa Chargeback is credited to the ticket holder once Lapland New Forest is in liquidation, who ends up paying – Lapland NF or the card-issuing bank?

It will depend on the terms of the agreement between the parties and I fully expect this to be a matter that the liquidator will investigate.

5. As there are Visa Chargeback rights in existence (albeit it possibly not legally binding), has Visa itself been offered the opportunity to register as a creditor?

All potential creditors are offered the chance to claim.

6. Do any successful chargebacks still get included in the figures for Lapland New Forest (as in the total amount allegedly ‘scammed’; for want of a better word)?

For calculating the company's trading loss - Yes
For calculating ticket sales for VAT purposes - No

7. Should a card-paying ticket holder who intends to claim via Visa Chargeback procedures, but who has not yet done so, and who has not yet received a letter from yourselves, request a copy of the Grant Thornton letter of early February?

It would be of great assistance if you could spread the message that any person that believes they have a claim (and has not heard form us) should request a claim form.

8. Following liquidation, is the ‘summary of debts and assets’ issued to all creditors?

The director is required to submit a sworn statement of affairs - it details the company's assets and liabilities as at the date of liquidation, a summary of this will be provided to all known creditors.

The Liquidator then reports on an annual basis and submits a final account when the liquidation is concluded.

9. Is there any point at which you in your capacity of ‘assisting the liquidation process’ or ‘the liquidators’ are obliged by law or 'best practise' procedure to notify card-paying ticketholders that they may have chargeback rights?

See above - the Liquidator cannot advise on claims other than those made against the company.

10. Is there any way that you in your capacity of ‘assisting with the liquidation process’ or ‘the liquidators’ will be legally obliged or legally able to ‘ringfence’ any funds currently held by RBS/Streamline in order to provide ticketholders with a full or partial refund?

The Streamline arrangements will be reviewed by the Liquidator(s) when appointed.

11. At one point, ticketholders were advised to write to Lapland New Forest prior to submitting a claim via their bank. Now that the Grant Thornton address is Lapland New Forest’s registered office, if somebody who is intending to make a claim via a chargeback writes to this registered office address, what impact will this have on their right for a refund via the chargeback process?

I regret that I cannot comment other than to suggest that ticket holders refer to their card provider.

12. Was a Grant Thornton letter sent to all card-paying ticketholders? If not, why not?

A letter was sent to all customers in the company's records - including those that had tickets that were valid for when the park was open.

13. Could a card-paying ticketholder who has not yet put in a request for a chargeback, still attend the meeting on 16th Feb prior to registering as a creditor?

Yes - but they will need to submit a claim form as evidence of their debt.

We have asked creditors to confirm if they are attending by using this email. The reason for this is so that we can gauge how large a venue is required and minimise the risk/cost of booking too large a venue. It would be of assistance if you are able to repeat this request.

14. If there were even the faintest possibility that a director (? Or company?-I’m not sure of the terminology here) could be stripped of its ‘limited liability’, would only creditors be potentially able to claim against the director’s personal assets, or could people who have still got claims outstanding with their bank and who don’t register as a creditor lose out? This is a more general question, and not specifically relating to Lapland New Forest.

The Insolvency Act provides a number of remedies for Liquidators - whether any are applicable in this case will be for the Liquidator to decide following his investigations. In addition, Liquidators are required to submit a report giving details of the directors conduct.

15. What is the time limit to register as a creditor? Are there any circumstances for which a ticketholder could register as a creditor after this cut off?

See comments above - the only time a creditor will lose out is if they do not lodge a claim before a final dividend is paid.

16. Is there any danger whatsoever that ticketholders who have received a refund as a result of the chargeback procedures, will have that refund clawed back by the liquidators?

Whilst it would seem unlikely, I regret that I cannot advise on this point. It would be for the Liquidator to consider.

17. Is there a ‘conflict of interest’ between Grant Thornton’s involvement in the liquidation or in ‘assisting the liquidation’ and the fact that RBS provided the payment facility? (It is understood that RBS is Grant Thornton’s bankers?)

No - the appointment of Liquidator is a personal appointment.

All liquidators have to be properly authorised and insured Insolvency Practitioners. Furthermore, they adhere to an ethical code that sets out exactly what constitutes a conflict of interest.

18. Is there any legal or procedural requirement for ‘the liquidators’ to set up webpages for open communication regarding the liquidation? Quote from the forum: as probably some 95% of sales where made online it would seem the most appropriate mechanism for distributing general information.

We were required by statute to send out notices of the initial creditors meeting by post. This totalled c9000 letters. I would suggest that to save ongoing costs that the Liquidators will do everything practically possible to communicate electronically with creditors.

19. As suggested by Trading Standards to a user of the forum, please can you clarify if there are any reasons (other than for potential refunds), why Grant Thornton, or ‘the liquidator’ may need personal details of ticketholders? This includes those ticketholders who have already been refunded, including those refunded as a ‘gesture of goodwill’.

The Liquidators will use the name and address of ticket holders for correspondence purposes in order to check claims made against the company's own records.

20. Why were all ticketholders from Lapland West Midlands refunded in full, but those from Lapland New Forest not? Our understanding is that both businesses had their funds frozen?

I am afraid that I cannot comment on Lapland West Midlands.



Regards,

whitewing

EdnaCloud

whitewing wrote: »

I decided against rearranging the questions in the email so that we could air some thoughts on the matter before we decide our next steps.

**snip**

I think we all owe whitewing a big thank you for this work, and I do hope it clarifies the liquidation process for those who have not found themselves in this unfortunate situation before.

Don't give up and keep chargebacks going on!