Money Management - Help Me With The Basics Please!

RAS

savingholmes wrote: »

Even where people feel they should tithe - can they not just tithe on their net and use gift aid to reclaim the tax paid reducing the net amount or is the point you are making that they don't earn enough to gift aid. If they wanted to do this there are also accounts you can sign up to so you get the gift aid into a charity account and then pay it from there....

Golly good idea. I can think of one OP for whom this would mean a £160 per month "saving" which would bring their budget closer to matching.

Personally I am very much in favour of "do not store up for yourselves things on earth " even though I do not do God at all. Just cannot see the point of having all that stuff to worry about. And I am quite happy to re-allocate a portion of my income to other causes, in varied ways.

But we have had people who really do not want their church to know that they are struggling, sometimes seriously struggling, because they feel that if they are not contributing they are worth less than those who do make a full contribution. To my mind that is also a form of hubris.

savingholmes

RAS wrote: »

But we have had people who really do not want their church to know that they are struggling, sometimes seriously struggling, because they feel that if they are not contributing they are worth less than those who do make a full contribution. To my mind that is also a form of hubris.

I know - we are one of them.... but it is legalism (Christians will probably know the term). I know churches who prescriptively state it should be a tithe on your gross - but even if that is the case the charity gift aid account or even the gift aid form to me gets round that. When I did my calcs - we more than tithe but as you can see from my sig can't really afford that. I'm still struggling to stop tho - when you start tithing on your pocket money.... it's a hard habit to break. And I do agree with angelflower - that churches do a lot of good so am worried about the impact on them of me stopping tithing....

Sorry Ann - hijacking your thread. I think the points you were planning to cover are perfectly valid but perhaps it is worth referencing the church's position re tithing/giving too.

In terms of the saving you can make through following advice on this site, I conservatively estimate I have saved £8K min in 12 months- a lot of which was the 0% balance transfers, but other savings include phone, broadband, insurance, utilities etc

WiseOldBird_2

Thanks for all your help. I can confirm that we are a church that encourages you to put tithing at the top of the list and I can personally confirm of the blessings that this brings. It has taught me over the years to be frugal and now I'm reaping the blessings -and I never went without even in my lean years. We do encourage paying via Gift Aid so we can save 22% or so on our tithing. However, having said that, our Church has a great welfare programme that helps all those in need. In fact, you are encouraged to pay your tithing and then come to the chuch for help if you need it financially.

But we still encourage 'self-reliance'. Although welfare help is kept confidential, I know there are instances of people who end up asking for help because they are hopeless at managing their money - and this is one reason we have these money management presentations. On the other hand we have people earning a lot less money and living quite well because they have learned how to stretch their money. (I think this is one reason I've been asked).

After education I think the biggest way to keep out of debt is self-discipline, and that's the hardest thing to learn isn't it, if you're not naturally self-disciplined. Anyway, thanks so much for your help. I'll look into all suggestions and any more welcomed.

Ann.

RAS

Hi

Many people who are in debt are deeply ashamed of their situation, because they know that they have contributed to the situation.

As I said I do not do God, but I was brought up in a "Christian" household and whatever I think of religion, I reckon JoN was a pretty decent guy and that his tenets are a good basis for a moral stance.

For me, we are were we are, however we got there. We can only move forward from that point, not the one we would like to be in. That means forgiving ourselves for screwing up and trying to do better today, tomorrow and thereafter. And acknowledging that we may well foul up occasionally, so we have to get up, shake ourselves off and start again from where we are then. Some of us find it easier than others, but in time we will get there.

I think that fits in pretty well with JoN's teachings.

Personally I am a lot less frugal than when I was seriously short of money, but I know I can flip back into that mode pretty quickly. Since I always hated owing money, because I found that scary, my times of scarcity were very immediate. There is very little self-discipline in that, more sheer fear. When I was faced with the prospect of not working for a while, I was terrified that I would end up on benefits, be unable to pay the mortgage, and then lose my home. It got me back to work way before anyone thought I should be, and it was what I needed to do to recover as well.

There are a few pointer's worth making.

A lot of people think thay are OK because they have been allowed to take on the debt, so it must be that they are able to pay for it. I failed to get a job as a recent graduate because I responded to a question on debt by explaining that I assumed that if a company was ready to lend me money, it was because they could make money out of me and that was not to my advantage. This was a big credit company.

The other people who feature regularly here are those whose circumstances have changed because of job loss, marital breakdown death or ill-health anywhere in the family. If they owe anything, including a mortgage, they are at risk. So it ay be that your welfare people need to think proactively in those situations.

And those who are too naive and allow partners or spouses to run up bills on their behalf. They think they are helping out and believe that their partner is as moral and responsible as they are. When they owe masses, they discover otherwise.

As a basic, teach people that if they sign as a joint signatory, they are personally liable for the full amount of the debt. And that if their partner is refused a loan or credit, then there is no way that the partner can afford to pay them regularly if they take out the debt instead.

So people need to be a bit more hard nosed about their dealings. People who would not put themselves at risk of physical assault lay themselves wide open to financial exploitation.

As an example I once had a very religious employee who came in distraught because she had been refused a bank loan to pay off some of her sister's debts. On talking to her it turned out that she was the only person in the household working (officially) and that her entire income was used to pay for loans to cover the acquisition of various household goods, the car she was allowed to share with her brother (although she paid the insurance as well she was only able to drive it occasionally) and a previous loan to cover her sister's debts. She saw absolutely nothing wrong with this situation. it took some time to get her to understand that she could not afford any further debt.

It was only when she got the option of a few hours overtime and her family had decided how to spend it by the following morning, several times over, that she got scared. We decided to "give her time off in lieu" instead and paid her one week, some time later, when she forgot to take her payslip home. That actually allowed her to get up to date on some of the payments she owed.

She thought that not giving everything was selfish. I would have loved her church to have got hold of her and her family and had someone explain that what was happening was not acceptable.

Doomcow

WiseOldBird wrote: »

1. How to set a budget (using the 'outgoings' suggestion on the board).
2. Followed by - 'if you haven't enough income then you have to do the following:
3. Boost income (with some suggestions).
4. Cut back on expenditure (e.g. food budgets, discerning between needs and wants, looking for the best deals, etc).
5. Finishing with a big plug for this site which is full of good ideas, thousands of tips and lovely people that will help anyone with any sort of financial problem.

hey wiseoldbird

i think a SOA like others have suggested would be a good idea - maybe yeah a print out and a walk-through of that would fit in well with what you are looking for.

on the above list, i'd knock off nr 3 - Boost Income. possibly for your target audience you should focus on:

1. budget setting
2. living within your means/cutting back expenditure
3. good ways and places to save/invest for the future and why we should do that (incl tax free stuff and accounts which dont *need* the internet)
4. suggestions of futher reading, eg, here, motley fool - or suggest some books/radio/tv shows that people could read/listen/watch should they not have internet access

just a few ideas

if you want more u gona have to help me with my CV! lolol! :rotfl:

BlueFleur

As I'm still quite new to this, I've just put down things that I found useful/would like to see. If I was going to be receiving the talk, then I'd be interested in the practical side of things. Maybe print copies of the SOA list to hand out, or take along examples of frugal recipes. I've never put presents etc in a budget, there is a definite learning curve when you start out. There is also a page here (somewhere) where Martin talks about how much the typical person could save in certain areas. That'd be quite useful to show just how much can be saved.

The other thing would be to find a willing 'goodie' who has an exemplary SOA and show it in a confidential way. If you show people that a family of four can live on £x a month and be comfortable, it might help with motivation. This might be a bit too far though. It is definitely something I'd look at however.

WiseOldBird_2

Thanks everyone. All excellent suggestions. My problem now is to fit it into 25 minutes!
Ann.

coolcait

Hiya

Just to add to your timing problems...

Some quotes might be helpful in prepring a framework. I don't think anything really surpasses the classic Dickens quote (in the mouth of Mr Micawber) for summing up the effects of debt:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

In the religious environment, two things spring to mind (if you want to trigger debate and soul-searching, lol!):

- the widow's mite. Although Jesus notes that others have given what they could afford, but the widow gave all she had, is he really advocating that the poor should give everything they own? Or is it a comment on the hypocrisy of those who ostentatiously gave what they could spare, compared to the discreet and humble offering of everything that the widow owned? (The hypocrisy theme is also seen in the difference between the ostentatious claims of goodness by the pharisee (?), compared to the humble plea of 'Lord have mercy on me, a sinner'; note also references to 'whited sepulchres'!). Quite a risky approach perhaps - it's pretty up front, and lots of scope for challenging biblical ripostes about giving up your earthly goods etc. :eek:

- the parable of the talents. Although it is ostensibly about money, the context and the language make it clear that it is about 'talents' in the sense of our own gifts. In the context of money management, in these difficult times, should believers be looking at using their 'talents' to help the community in payment of their tithe? Tie this in with 'render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's', using the phrase 'God-given talents'.

You might spark a debate, you might be hounded as a heretic :eek: . You know your community better than any of us, so use the ideas which you think are best!! (And ignore the rest!!)