MONEY MORAL DILEMMA: Should Alan give the laptop back?

Gekite

misha wrote: »

I did not say this is not a moral decision - I said it is not a moral maze. All I meant is that I do not believe anybody really thinks that they are in the right by keeping the laptop. They can find hundreds of convenient excuses and argue about them to death - however just look into yourself - truly - and you would know that unless you employ complex legalistic arguments, the right thing is to return the laptop - simply because another human being has made a mistake.

Part of the problem here is that looking inside yourself usually just brings out what you've already been taught or what your experience in more inclined towards. Which when brought up in a culture tends to favour that culture. It certainly has no bearing on what is ultimately the right thing to do as you seem to imply!

Why return something that has been bought both legally and yes even morally! Is this a case of a lacking of imagination or maybe an over active imagination?

What to you are deemed as convenient excuses are another persons thoughts and feelings towards the issue at hand. Who are you to dismiss anothers points because you personally don't agree or wish to accept that they might be making valid points? How do you square this so-called morality of yours with such a casual dismissal of others?

So the checkout assistant made a mistake - how does that affect whether is should be returned or not. The checkout assistant hasn't suffered any loss, although I notice that many are trying to introduce such a concept of loss even though it is not mentioned in the hypothetical. Why are people introducing additional ideas of loss/gain and punishment to support there own pet theory of what is right?

A.Jones

UKan2 wrote: »

He should point out the error to the manager and expect a decent 'reward' for his honesty, and if he didn't get one, write in to their head office and public relations.

I don't get it. If it is morally wrong to take the laptop at the price the cashier offered it at, why is it morally right to expect a reward, and to complain if you do not get one?

Surely if you returned it because that is the morally correct thing to do, you should not expect anything in reward. In fact, expecting a reward for a moral action shows that the action is not a moral one. As to writing to the head office and public relations, presumably to inform them of a pricing error made in their store and that you did not get a reward for pointing out this error, surely that would put more pressure on the manager than the actual loss of a laptop. If head office know they have made one mistake, then chances are they have made others, and they will be watched more closely than other branches. Grassing to head office because you did not get a reward for a moral action again does not seem very moral.

scotbruce

Oh dear!

boxoffireworks wrote: »

scotbruce wrote: »

Quote:
" ... and I believe that this would be a civil matter.

IMHO, there's no crime of theft here - "

Theft is a criminal offence, not a civil one!

Correct - as I stated in my original post.

adamski82 wrote: »

The Theft Act 1968 Section1 (1) states that a person is guilty of theft if: he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

He has done so as he realised the shop assistants mistake at the time of purchase and failed to act on it.
Therefore he should pay the full price.

Regards your local constable.

Em - no. A contract is agreed at the time of purchase at the till, even at the mistaken price, so he takes lawful ownership of the laptop and therefore cannot be accused of 'stealing' it.

"After he'd paid, the manager came up and admitted that the laptop was legally his ..."

Neither is there any fraudulent scheme, so he hasn't defrauded the shop by accepting the laptop at the wrong price - it's a mistake by the shop and its staff, which he accepts or doesn't - a moral, not a legal or illegal choice.

Gekite

misha wrote: »

Why is this scary? A perfectly innocent human being has made a sincere, perhaps negligent mistake - and you simply refuse to take advantage by keeping the laptop or trying to squeeze a freebie.

Do you have a general problem with comprehending what people write or do you do it deliberately? What's scary is the way you like to put forward your demands.

misha wrote: »

You (Oh, pardon me, not you PERSONALLY - Alan) should return the laptop and in turn put your destiny in the hands of the manager - if he is decent, he'd appreciate what you've done and will thank you, perhaps with some cash gift.

Condescending to boot! Put your destiny in the hands of the manager? He'll then reward you as he'll appreciate what has been done? This sounds like some mantra you preach at children! At best this is blatant emotional blackmail in order to get someone to capitulate.

misha wrote: »

You are permitted to disagree, but so is a poor man who steals from a rich man under an excuse - I really need it and he won't miss it and anyway he gained his reaches in the first place by probably stealing from me and others like me! So I will wield my own justice! Steel from the him! Take back my own!

No not really, you certainly come across as though you already have it worked out for us. No one 'stole' from anyone else, so no one has any need to take anything back. Which land of fantasy and make believe are you living in?

misha wrote: »

I fail to see how an act of honesty creates "self-proclaimed bastions of self-righteousness" - it is simply a matter of a common-place honesty. If in your book honesty means "self-righteousness", I would suggest you examine your slant on life in general.

So I take it the misrepresentation is deliberate then! As this is the second time you've resorted to employing it! Maybe you're the one that should re-examine their slant on life? You like to talk the talk but you sure ain't walking the walk. As for me, since it obviously bothers you, I can assure you that I do indeed assess my ideas on life on a very regular basis.

misha wrote: »

As I mentioned before, unless one employs complex legal arguments about the store being a separate entity, how the cashier exactly relates to this entity, are they one or not etc, etc, the answer is simple: one should never take advantage of another's honest mistake, and if taking such advantage means personal financial gain, then this act is lowly, unjust and above all simply greedy.

So if ones actually takes into account the circumstances of the situation instead of appealing to your authority then Alan is quite within his rights both legally and morally in keeping the laptop, right oh, glad we got that sorted out.

Your so-called simple answer, which is more like a vast majority of over generalisations, plainly doesn't reflect the situation here. Though I'm sure you and a few others could manage to make it a tight glove like fit. OJ!. Your simple answer sounds nice, it's emotive and appears to address potential problems in human interaction. But like all simple dictates usually and very quickly ends up condemning even the most innocent of people in its gaze.

Gekite

A.Jones wrote: »

I don't get it. If it is morally wrong to take the laptop at the price the cashier offered it at, why is it morally right to expect a reward, and to complain if you do not get one?

Surely if you returned it because that is the morally correct thing to do, you should not expect anything in reward. In fact, expecting a reward for a moral action shows that the action is not a moral one. As to writing to the head office and public relations, presumably to inform them of a pricing error made in their store and that you did not get a reward for pointing out this error, surely that would put more pressure on the manager than the actual loss of a laptop. If head office know they have made one mistake, then chances are they have made others, and they will be watched more closely than other branches. Grassing to head office because you did not get a reward for a moral action again does not seem very moral.

It might be best if we didn't question their indoctrination so closely! There again they freely choose to post and question the morality of others, so maybe it is fair to dispel some of the myths they live by!

Aspal

I am probably really going to regret posting this, having seen how much debate and arguing has been thrown up already........but I know someone who had something similar happen to them....

A friend of a friend purchased 2 PSPs and a DS Lite (or might have been other way round...) at Game along with some other stuff using her kids Xmas money. Cashier scanned 1st PSP then put it in bag, scanned other bits, then put 2nd PSP in bag without scanning it (presumably didn't realise she was buying 2 and thought it was one that had been scanned). She didn't say anything, and kept it, even though she knew total was £100+ less than it should have been, and later went back in and spent the rest of the money on games for it.

batch.rhodes

:beer: Say Cheers Easy to the manager. This will help make up for the time 4 years ago when I returned an unwanted raffle prize (An XBox, I already had one) All the manager would do was give me a credit note for £99 and would not accept the game with it even though unopened. He then promptly resold it (before the credit note was even completed) for £150 with 2 games, 1 of which was the same I was left with.:mad: Supply and demand he called it, who's laughing now!!!!:D :T

batch.rhodes

To be fair Aspal, yours is a different situation. If you leave the shop without paying anything for an item it is technically theft. If the item was never scanned and sold, no contract had ever been entered into for that particular PSP. The laptop was contracted albeit at the incorrect price. I would have done the same as your friend though just playing devils.

journeyliz

I'd hope that I'd tell them. Morally that's right. I would then ask for a discount, or, even better, for good will the manager should just offer one - though you shouldn't be banking on that when you tell them.

Would I actually do it? I'd like to think so, but there may be a small part of me that on the spot that wouldn't. Ouch - sorry, devil's trident in my side.

Susan_Frost

Yes, I would definitely offer the money as soon as I realised. However, a similar thing happened to me in Homebase. We bought a patio set, table, 6 chairs and umbrella. The price rung up seemed very low so I questioned it. The boy on the till (presumably weekend worker) and the man who got most of it from the store room (and was fed up with us by then) were both quite short with me and said it was right. I even said are you sure you've included everything and got a rather angry YES. We worked out what had happened with the bill when we got home and they had charged for 1 chair instead of 6. At £50 each this was a saving of £250. Thank you Homebase, but no, at that point I would not have handed the cash over. Normally we do get polite service from our local Homebase store.