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MET PCN Advice required

mick_miller
mick_miller Posts: 17 Forumite
edited 8 March 2018 at 3:46PM in Parking tickets, fines & parking
I may have already made some fatal errors in my appeals process as this wasn't my first port of call. However, as clearly some of you are rather expert in these matters I'm hoping I can claw this back and avoid a charge.

I'm not too sure how much detail I should add so specific location won't be given. This is the current course of events.

In January I parked outside a Starbucks on a retail park run by Euro Garages. The intention was to use the toilet and grab a coffee. The place was packed so I elected to walk to the McDonald's next door and use the toilet there. On leaving I looked in again at the Starbucks and it was still busy so I got back into the car and left. Total stay less than 15 minutes. Time in McDonald's 4 minutes.

In February I received the PCN from MET stating a £60 fine rising to £100 after 14 days.

I used the online appeals process to enquire what the charge related to. I think my single sentence appeal stated "I'm not sure what the contravention here is?". I'm fairly sure I filled in the details as registered keeper.

The appeal was rejected on the grounds that "The terms and conditions of use of the car park are clearly stated on signs prominently displayed in this area. These include that the car park is for the use of XXX customers while they are on the premises only, that McDonald's is not on XXX and that there is no free parking for McDonald's. Your vehicle was recorded parked at this location while you left the site walking in the direction of McDonald!!!8217;s therefore we believe the charge notice was issued correctly and we are upholding it."

I since contacted Starbucks customer services via email and complained, they stated that they also believed the charge was incorrectly applied and that they would contact the provider, Euro Garages, to have the charge cancelled - they get this happening a lot.

I've since tried to contact Euro Garages with a copy of the email sent to Starbucks customer services to chase up the cancellation but thus far haven't had a reply. The charge still shows as active on the MET parking site.

I have received a POPLA code but wondered what my next approach should be as there seems to be little movement in having the charge quashed.

My message to Euro Garages and Starbucks did include the defence of 'inappropriate charge applied' and 'not commensurate with the loss to business', which I now know as being useless having read some of the threads. Have I boxed myself into a corner here? Should I just cough up and be done? Any advice appreciated.

I forgot to add: the photos they submitted clearly show me walking toward McDonalds and returning 3 minutes later, both times empty handed.
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Comments

  • mick_miller
    mick_miller Posts: 17 Forumite
    Just had an email from euro garages which states:

    "Hi xxx,We are extremely sorry you have received a parking fine. However the parking terms are enforced by the land owner, and not us,
    therefore we cannot help you. There are plenty of signs dotted around the car park stating you cannot leave the site. If you feel this is unjustified
    then you can appeal the fine with MET parking."


    So, it looks like the complaint to the forecourt management and retailer approach has failed then!
  • mick_miller
    mick_miller Posts: 17 Forumite
    edited 8 March 2018 at 6:10PM
    Final nugget of info. The alleged contravention took place on the 13th January, but the NTRK only arrived on the 12th February, could this be simply null and void because it has not been issued within 14 days?

    "ANPR letters should be received by the Registered Keeper within 14 days. If they haven't then the Keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of a driver. If you were not the driver then you can write to the Parking company to tell them that as the company had not met the strict requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the Keeper has no liability and they should take it up with the driver - who you need not name."

    So, assuming I need to take this up with POPLA I wonder whether the following would be sufficient.

    "As the Registered Keeper of this vehicle I am appealing this parking charge notice on the grounds that ANPR letters should be received by the Registered Keeper within 14 days.

    As the alleged contravention took place on the 13th January 2018 and the notice not issued until the 12th February 2018 the Keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of a driver.

    As MET Parking has not met the strict requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the Keeper is not liable in this instance. MET Parking will need to pursue the driver of the vehicle on this occasion. As the registered keeper I am not obliged to name the driver on this occasion."
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,614 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    Yes it's too late, if :

    - this is your car and you are the registered keeper, not a lease/hire/company car

    or if:

    - this was a postal PCN with ANPR photos of the car driving in and out - or other photos of the car on it.

    However:

    The document was not late if this NTK talks about a windscreen PCN on the day that 'remains unpaid'.
    I used the online appeals process to enquire what the charge related to. I think my single sentence appeal stated "I'm not sure what the contravention here is?". I'm fairly sure I filled in the details as registered keeper.
    That's good news if you are sure (if this was an ANPR camera postal PCN and you are the rk on the V5).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • mick_miller
    mick_miller Posts: 17 Forumite
    Have a thank on me. I did send a copy of my complaint to MET stating more details (as outlined in the first post), but as you are only allowed a single appeal I never received a reply - I guess an automated process, you have one appeal and that's it.

    It IS my car. This WAS a postal PCN with photo evidence. There WAS/IS no wondscreen PCN. So, would the appeal to POPLA below suffice? Should I add anything?
    As the Registered Keeper of this vehicle I am appealing this parking charge notice on the grounds that ANPR letters should be received by the Registered Keeper within 14 days.

    As the alleged contravention took place on the 13th January 2018 and the notice not issued until the 12th February 2018 the Keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of a driver.

    As MET Parking has not met the strict requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the Keeper is not liable in this instance. MET Parking will need to pursue the driver of the vehicle on this occasion. As the registered keeper I am not obliged to name the driver.
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,628 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    edited 8 March 2018 at 6:49PM
    To see what a PoPLA appeal should look like, see this thread:

    forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5792489

    Have you yet discovered the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread?
    In particular, post #3 of that thread gives comprehensive guidance on constructing a PoPLA appeal.
  • mick_miller
    mick_miller Posts: 17 Forumite
    I find that thread monumentally confusing I'm afraid.
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,628 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    I find that thread monumentally confusing I'm afraid.

    Which thread? I mentioned two.

    The link I supplied gives you an already written PoPLA appeal text for MET.
    What could be easier?
  • mick_miller
    mick_miller Posts: 17 Forumite
    So would this be better?
    POPLA Ref xxx
    MET Parking Services PCN no xxx

    A notice to keeper was issued on 12th February 2018 and received by me, the registered keeper of XXXXXX for the alleged contravention of 'Breach of terms and conditions' at Southgate Park, Stansted. I am writing to you as the registered keeper and would be grateful if you would please consider my appeal for the following reasons.

    1) As the Registered Keeper of this vehicle I am appealing this parking charge notice on the grounds that ANPR letters should be received by the Registered Keeper within 14 days.
    2) MET has deliberately chosen not to use POFA has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge. (ref POPLA case Carly Law 6061796103)
    3) Non-compliance with requirements set out in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4) No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice
    5) The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself.


    1). As the Registered Keeper of this vehicle I am appealing this parking charge notice on the grounds that ANPR letters should be received by the Registered Keeper within 14 days.

    As the alleged contravention took place on the 13th January 2018 and the notice not issued until the 12th February 2018 the Keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of a driver.

    As MET Parking has not met the strict requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the Keeper is not liable in this instance. MET Parking will need to pursue the driver of the vehicle on this occasion. As the registered keeper I am not obliged to name the driver.

    2) MET has deliberately chosen not to use POFA has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge. (ref POPLA case Carly Law 6061796103)

    MET has deliberately chosen not to use POFA and make no mention of such or the transfer of liability to the keeper under POFA 2012 in the Notice to Keeper I have received.

    In cases with a keeper Registered Keeper, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

    Where a charge is aimed only at a driver then, of course, no other party can be told to pay. I am the Registered Keeper throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.

    As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4 which they have not in this case. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made because the fact remains I am only the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper Registered Keeper to be deemed to be the liable party.

    The burden of proof rests with the Operator, because they cannot use the POFA in this case, to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

    Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA 2012 was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

    Understanding keeper liability

    ";There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

    There is no ';reasonable presumption'; in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass."

    Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator is NOT attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 which in this case the operator is not.

    This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:
    "I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the Registered Keeper is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the Registered Keeper is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the Registered Keeper. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal."

    The same conclusion was reached by POPLA Assessor Steve Macallan, quoted in appeal point 5 above.

    3) Non-compliance with requirements set out in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    If MET Parking Services did wish to make use of the Keeper Liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012, which they have not, the Notice to Keeper must meet the strict requirements set out in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012; paragraph 8 states specifically ";The notice must!!!8211;;specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;"; The notice to keeper that I have received does not state the period of parking to which the notice relates, only the time the PCN was issued.

    Due to the omission of this detail the notice to keeper does not comply with Schedule 4 paragraph 6 of POFA 2012 and means that myself, the registered keeper of the vehicle cannot be held to account for the alleged debt of the driver

    4) No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement


    5) Further, Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':

    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:

    xxx://xxx.appealnow.com/parking-ticket/clamping-case-Vine-v-Waltham-Forest/

    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

    So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.

    I therefore request that POPLA uphold my appeal and cancel this PCN.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,614 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    Yep, that'll do!

    :D
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • mick_miller
    mick_miller Posts: 17 Forumite
    Fingers crossed then!
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