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  • FIRST POST
    • jolite100
    • By jolite100 30th Sep 17, 9:44 PM
    • 11Posts
    • 7Thanks
    jolite100
    ParkingEye PLeasureland Morecambe
    • #1
    • 30th Sep 17, 9:44 PM
    ParkingEye PLeasureland Morecambe 30th Sep 17 at 9:44 PM
    Looking for advice on POPLA appeal.
    I don’t live near Morecambe – has anyone got any recent photos of the entrance supposedly showing “clear signage” or the display notice next to the ticket machine? I’ve found a few photos on the forums dated 2016 showing inadequate signage but cant recall if that’s been fixed or what was showing when I visited on 3 Sep 17.

    In short, I paid £2 for 3hrs parking on the Sunday (still have the ticket), but it took my partner 24 mins to get change from a busy Morrison’s a hundred meters away. I had no idea ANPR was monitoring the entry time so I took the time on the printed ticket as the time to watch out for when exiting. We left 10 mins before the ticket expired. Received a £100 parking notice charge in the post about a week later. That stated my time in the car park was 3 hrs 13 mins, which is correct.

    I've already appealed to ParkingEye as registered keeper stating the facts above hoping the mitigation would be enough but it didn’t work and now have POPLA appeal number.

    I was thinking of challenging on:
    1) Missing or poor signage at entrance and by ticket machine (photos?)
    2) Signage does not state that the parking time starts from point of entry into car park. How could I be expected to remember time of entry when I though the time that counts is the time printed on my ticket?
    3) No allowance for grace period after entry to gather correct change needed (we could not reasonably have been any quicker).
    4) I will include a scan of my parking ticket

    Anything else? POFA para printed on reverse and I received the notice within a week. I could have paid £3 for 12 hours parking (that was the tariff), so is it worth challenging an excessive £100 charge for a stay of 3 hrs 13 mins (which would only have cost me £3)?

    thanks!
Page 1
    • jolite100
    • By jolite100 2nd Oct 17, 8:17 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    jolite100
    • #2
    • 2nd Oct 17, 8:17 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Oct 17, 8:17 PM
    I have now drafted my POPLA appeal below, centring on two main points. I guess I could add a few of the the other stock contentions. I received my PCN within the 14 days. I have photos showing how busy the car park was on the day, the ticket machine and my parking voucher which I will embed. All this is about being 13 mins over a 3 hr time purchase. I note there's a successful POPLA decision posted today about Newquay for a 13 min overstay. Any advice on my draft appreciated.

    I am writing to you to lodge a formal appeal against a parking charge notice. I contend that I am not liable for this parking charge on the basis of:

    No reasonable grace period
    Inadequate signage

    No reasonable grace period allowed – delay on entering coinage after entry
    Comparison between the purchased P&D ticket and the ANPR exit photo, clearly indicates the vehicle exited the car park at 16.22, which is 10 minutes before the P&D ticket expiry time of 16.32 (see photo - £2 buys 3hrs and the purchase time was 13.32). In ParkingEye’s appeal rejection letter of 28 September, they contend that “insufficient time was paid for on the date of the parking event”. In their PCN of 8 September, they contend the vehicle was parked for 3 hours 13 minutes. Yet no allowance has been made for the time delay I incurred by looking for an empty parking bay in a busy car park with children and dogs at a popular beach location on a Sunday lunchtime in summer. No time allowed finding the ticketing machine, to read the tariff and other notices, nor to look for correct change. No time allowed for my partner to obtain pound coins from the cashiers at the busy adjacent Morrison’s supermarket (on what was a popular ‘vintage weekend’ event in Morecambe). No allowance for time taken to enter the vehicle registration number correctly or return to the vehicle to display the ticket in the windscreen. Lesser delays were incurred on exit, but this still took a couple of minutes.

    The British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice states in section 13.2, “You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action”.

    [Insert pics of parking voucher and busy car park ]

    Inappropriate signage
    There is nothing transparent about ParkingEye’s signage at Pleasureland car park to inform the driver that ANPR cameras are used to calculate the time that needs to be paid for. The main detailed sign indicates that the “car park is monitored by APNR systems” with an icon of a CCTV camera which gives an impression these are used to monitory safety and security. Nowhere does it say that the APNR system is used to track the time of entry and departure to determine the contract period.

    The instructions on the ticketing machine tell the driver to “display ticket clearly in vehicle” which leads the driver to think that compliance is enforced locally by a parking attendant. The driver is therefore misled into thinking that the printed ticket time is the start time of the parking contract. In our case, I monitored our time spent in Morecambe to ensure the vehicle left the car park before the P&D ticket expiry time. ParkingEye’s use of the arrival time is of no help to the driver as this time is not revealed after entering the vehicle registration number. When deciding on what tariff to pay, there is nothing on the machine or elsewhere to remind drivers to make an allowance for the time elapsed between arriving at the car park and entering the coinage. It is unreasonable to expect otherwise and unreasonable for drivers to accurately remember the time of entry in order to work out the time they need to exit.

    There is nothing about the £100 charge on the ticket machine.

    There is no clear signage around the payment machine indicating to the motorist that what the driver is paying for. According to ParkingEye, this is stay time yet the machine states “parking tariff”. In addition, the machine instructions state “During busy periods please find parking space prior to purchasing ticket”. This again indicates the contracted period of time starts at the time of purchase of the ticket.

    There is no clear signage on the driver’s side on entrance to Pleasureland car park.

    Pleasureland car park is a large beach car park site and the ANPR system is not connected to the Pay and Display system. This is wholly separate and runs to its own timing on tickets, which does not match the ANPR camera times. The systems are separate, can be minutes out from the time printed on a ticket, skewing the entire 'evidence' and grace periods argument. I put ParkingEye to strict proof otherwise.

    [insert pic of ticket machine]
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Oct 17, 8:46 PM
    • 51,711 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 2nd Oct 17, 8:46 PM
    • #3
    • 2nd Oct 17, 8:46 PM
    You've missed out the usual 'no landowner authority' template from post #3 of the NEWBIES thread.

    I note there's a successful POPLA decision posted today about Newquay for a 13 min overstay
    Quote the POPLA code, date and Assessor's name from that other decision, that the alleged 'overstay' was 13 minutes same as the skewed timing alleged here, and say how similar the situation is at Pleasureland Car Park in late Summer, on a popular event weekend as at Newquay.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jolite100
    • By jolite100 21st Oct 17, 10:53 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    jolite100
    • #4
    • 21st Oct 17, 10:53 AM
    • #4
    • 21st Oct 17, 10:53 AM
    Well I submitted my updated appeal letter (thanks Coupon-Mad) on Tuesday, and yesterday (20th), Popla emailed telling me that Parking Eye have now submitted their evidence. When I click on the link to view the document (supposedly a PDF file), it's all gibberish, pages of ASCII characters and random text. What's going on? Above the link it says, 'the operator didn't provide a case summary'. I've got 6 days to respond to unreadable evidence - tried to open it on tablet and pc, no luck.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 21st Oct 17, 11:01 AM
    • 7,413 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #5
    • 21st Oct 17, 11:01 AM
    • #5
    • 21st Oct 17, 11:01 AM
    Have you seen this?


    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/waiting-for-space-is-not-parking.html
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 21st Oct 17, 11:32 AM
    • 16,895 Posts
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    Redx
    • #6
    • 21st Oct 17, 11:32 AM
    • #6
    • 21st Oct 17, 11:32 AM
    do you have adobe reader installed ?

    can you open other pdf documents ?

    if yes , phone POPLA on monday morning and ask them about it (obvious really) and ask them to email the pdf to you (or the claimants evidence pack)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • jolite100
    • By jolite100 21st Oct 17, 12:06 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    jolite100
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 17, 12:06 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 17, 12:06 PM
    Thanks, will do, didn't know Popla will speak to you over the phone
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 21st Oct 17, 12:26 PM
    • 15,898 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 21st Oct 17, 12:26 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Oct 17, 12:26 PM
    Thanks, will do, didn't know Popla will speak to you over the phone
    Originally posted by jolite100
    Why not, they’re not God?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • jolite100
    • By jolite100 21st Oct 17, 1:27 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    jolite100
    • #9
    • 21st Oct 17, 1:27 PM
    • #9
    • 21st Oct 17, 1:27 PM
    Right, just tried opening the attachment on a third computer and it now opens - all 45 pages of it, so no idea what went wrong with other 2. Im just out and about at the moment so just scanned it. Seems to be a stock response to generic issues (some of which I didn't invoke). They haven't addressed any of the arguments I've raised about circumstances on the day hindering the purchase of the ticket, stating, "all grace periods in place are a minimum of 10 minutes or more". They've included lots of photos of the plot and signs but not one of the ticket machine itself, which gives the mixed messages
    about the ticket time being all important. I included a photo of the ticket machine instructions in my evidence. They also included the supply agreement for car park management- redacted in places, plus associated terms and conditions which are virtually illegible.

    On the supply agreement it states, 'Initial term: a period commencing on the effective date and expiring after 24 months". The signatures at the bottom are dated 25/06/15 for the customer and 2/7/15 for Parking Eye. So it expired before I parked there in September.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 21st Oct 17, 1:56 PM
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    Redx
    good , draft up a popla rebuttal based on recent similar rebuttals on here

    use all the issues you can find like you said above , looking for signage issues , contract issues and anything else

    post the draft rebuttal on here when complete , for critique

    chances are you dont have a pdf reader set up on the "faulty computers" , so its your tools , not popla
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Oct 17, 4:02 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    They also included the supply agreement for car park management- redacted in places, plus associated terms and conditions which are virtually illegible.
    Did they show the 'grace period' in that agreement? It could well be 15 minutes. Who knows? Ring Pleasureland and ask to speak to the manager and ask them (tell them ParkingEye appear to be withholding the grace period information so you cannot get a straight answer from them). If he/she confirms it's 15 minutes ask for that by email immediately.

    If no luck, then set out some SHORT bullet points for POPLA, re your observations about the evidence, pointing what PE have omitted, saying you believe the grace period is actually 15 minutes and PE have covered that information in the ''contract''.

    Also look at the date of the contract; if more than 12 months ago, point out it appears to have expired. If the signatories are not shown/identified, object to that too.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jolite100
    • By jolite100 21st Oct 17, 7:40 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    jolite100
    Thanks Coupon-Mad. Useful. I've looked again at the service agreement - several things redacted including most of the text in the box titled 'car park free stay time limit'. The only thing they've not redacted here is the beginning bit "no free stay". I suspect the blacked-out bit could be grace period. The landowner is "Johnny's Entertainments Tyneside limited". PE has redacted the company head office address. I'm away from home at the moment and using this forum with an iPhone. On Monday I could extract the service agreement pages at work within Acrobat and upload it?

    Also, the agreement has expired -it's dated 25/6/15 and agreement says it expires in 24 months. Isn't this alone enough to demonstrate PE had supplied no evidence of landowner authority? Signatories are blanked out too.

    I can search forums properly on Monday - many thanks for all the support.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 21st Oct 17, 8:21 PM
    • 15,898 Posts
    • 24,643 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    You go to work on the unsatisfactory nature of the heavily redacted contract. Don’t hold back, it’s for them to prove their case. Redacting large swathes needs to be argued as hiding essential information.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Oct 17, 10:24 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Also, the agreement has expired -it's dated 25/6/15 and agreement says it expires in 24 months. Isn't this alone enough to demonstrate PE had supplied no evidence of landowner authority? Signatories are blanked out too.
    POPLA like that...!

    Can you ring the place on Sunday, such a place must be open and dead easy to Google 'contact us'.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jolite100
    • By jolite100 23rd Oct 17, 11:41 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    jolite100
    Back at work and took another look over PE evidence pack. Thought the contract had expired but noticed the following in the early case summary pages:

    "Please be advised that in clause 4.4 of the redacted contract inserted into Section G, the clause advises the following:

    ‘This Agreement may be terminated by either party on expiry of the Initial Term by the provision of at least 30 days’ written notice to the other party, prior to expiry of the Initial Term (for each year of the Initial term). If no such notice of termination is received by either party further to 4.4 or 4.5, this Agreement shall automatically continue in force for a further period equivalent to the Initial Term under the same terms and conditions contained herein unless terminated pursuant to Clause 12, and this same Agreement renewal process shall apply for every subsequent cycle thereafter.’

    ParkingEye can confirm this contract has not been terminated by either party, so the contract was effective on the date the charge was incurred"


    Does that cover them on this point or not?

    So it looks like my main argument is on grace period. PE state in the case summary:

    "ParkingEye operates a grace period on all sites which gives the motorist time to enter a car park, park, and establish whether or not they wish to be bound by the terms and conditions of parking. There is a sufficient grace period in place at this site which is fully compliant with the BPA code of practice. All grace periods in place are a minimum of 10 minutes or more in line with the BPA Code of Practice."

    Spoke to the Pleasureland amusement arcade manager yesterday who told me the grace period is 10 mins "by law". Had sympathy with me... gets lots of calls. However, as I mentioned in my post yesterday, why has text about the 'free stay time limit' been redacted on the supply agreement - it can't be anything to do with reasons of commercial confidentiality (I'd upload a scan but as a new user I'm not allowed to post links).

    In my rebuttal, I'll state PE has not acknowledged my evidence about the circumstances on the day. My other argument will point to PE ignoring my evidence (and photo) of the instructions on the ticket machine, which is the 'signage' that motorists read.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Oct 17, 12:26 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    ParkingEye can confirm this contract has not been terminated by either party, so the contract was effective on the date the charge was incurred"

    Does that cover them on this point or not?
    I would still mention it to POPLA and say PE have shown no evidence that the contract is current.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jolite100
    • By jolite100 24th Oct 17, 11:05 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    jolite100
    Draft rebuttal for comment
    PE has not addressed the constraints and circumstances at Pleasureland car park on the day in question – outlined in my evidence file in relation to grace period.

    PE state in their case summary (Section B) that, “All grace periods in place are a minimum of 10 minutes or more” but PE fail to reveal what the site-specific graced period is at Pleasureland car park. This information appears to have been redacted in the basic supply agreement (Section G). PE’s associated ‘terms and conditions of supply’ (Section G) state the applicable grace period is specified in the site specific ‘user manual’ guidance but PE has not supplied a copy for inspection.

    PE has not acknowledged the fact that the ticket machine instructions give a misleading impression to the driver that the printed ticket time is the commencement time of the parking contract. PE has not provided a photo of the ticket machine instructions but a photo is included in my evidence file under ‘inadequate signage’. The misleading instruction (bottom left hand corner of photo) reads, “During busy periods please find parking space prior to purchasing ticket”.

    PE has shown no evidence that their contract with the landowner (Section G) is current.

    That's all I've got for what I see as relevant points. Guess I don't need to repeat anything from my evidence and that popla will read it?! In that, I did make the point (a few posts up) re popla finding in favour of the motorist re a similar 13 minutes 'overstay' at Newquay and gave the case details.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 24th Oct 17, 11:48 AM
    • 1,307 Posts
    • 1,697 Thanks
    Castle

    PE state in their case summary (Section B) that, “All grace periods in place are a minimum of 10 minutes or more” but PE fail to reveal what the site-specific graced period is at Pleasureland car park.
    Originally posted by jolite100
    There are two grace periods; one before you pay and the second after you leave your parking spot. So, if pay for 3 hours parking then the total time on site allowed is at least 3 Hours 20 minutes; and your stay of 3 hours 13 minutes falls under that minimum allowed time.
    • jolite100
    • By jolite100 25th Oct 17, 5:16 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    jolite100
    Thanks, I will amend text above to refer to grace periods. Are they additive? Would be a simple ruling in my favour it they are.

    I'll also state PE's 'terms and conditions' of landowner contract are illegible.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 25th Oct 17, 5:21 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
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    Redx
    yes they are additive

    one before the parking period , and one after

    have you read clause #13 of the BPA CoP (download it)

    the period to leave is "over 10 minutes"

    now if we assume it was 10 minutes to leave, would you agree that the 3 minutes to enter , find a spot , park up , go and read the signs and comply with them (possibly buying a ticket from a ticket machine) would be 3 OR MORE minutes ?

    the initial period is not specified, but it is thought to be 5 to 10 minutes , with 11 or more minutes to leave

    so 2 + 11 ?
    or 3 + 10 ?
    or 5 + 8 ?

    its all relevant , so they lose on this aspect time and again , which is why its your STRONGEST legal argument in your popla appeal and was mentioned a few times already
    Last edited by Redx; 25-10-2017 at 6:02 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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