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    • dangermouse007
    • By dangermouse007 30th Jun 17, 6:22 PM
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    dangermouse007
    Transferwise - chargeback or section 75
    • #1
    • 30th Jun 17, 6:22 PM
    Transferwise - chargeback or section 75 30th Jun 17 at 6:22 PM
    I have an item that has been delivered faulty from a merchant in France and paid them direct to their bank account through Transferwise using my credit card. I have contacted them to no avail and they don't even acknowledge my emails. Given that I've used Transferwise to make the payment, albeit using a credit card, can I claim the money back using a chargeback or a section 75 claim? Thanks in advance for any help.
Page 1
    • eDicky
    • By eDicky 30th Jun 17, 7:09 PM
    • 3,152 Posts
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    eDicky
    • #2
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:09 PM
    • #2
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:09 PM
    TransferWise delivered the service that you paid for with your credit card, so you have no claim there. Why did you use TransferWise, were you unable to pay the merchant directly with your card?
    • dangermouse007
    • By dangermouse007 30th Jun 17, 7:24 PM
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    dangermouse007
    • #3
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:24 PM
    • #3
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:24 PM
    I could not pay the merchant directly. they asked for a bank transfer which I used tranferwise for. Is a chargeback or section 75 claim not valid when using transferwise?
    • Chapuys
    • By Chapuys 30th Jun 17, 7:47 PM
    • 146 Posts
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    Chapuys
    • #4
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:47 PM
    • #4
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:47 PM
    I could not pay the merchant directly. they asked for a bank transfer which I used tranferwise for. Is a chargeback or section 75 claim not valid when using transferwise?
    Originally posted by dangermouse007
    Section 75 kicks in only if there is a "direct relationship" between a product (your purchase) and the debt (the payment on your card).

    It does not apply to so-called "indirect relationships". This means that if you make a payment through an agency, then the direct relationship is broken and Section 75 won't apply.

    A card machine in a shop (or a card payment online) preserves the direct relationship, since the retailer gets paid immediately.

    With a company such as Transferwise, however, it is different: you pay Transferwise and then Transferwise pays your retailer .

    In other words, Transferwise acts as a middleman (an agency) and the direct relationship is broken; Section 75 can't apply.

    *Copied from the unlockthelaw.co.uk website, amended with transferwise.
    Anything I say in no way constitutes financial advice and anything you do is your own decision.
    • dj1471
    • By dj1471 30th Jun 17, 7:50 PM
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    dj1471
    • #5
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:50 PM
    • #5
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:50 PM
    Assuming Transferwise made the payment you have no grounds for a chargeback or S75.

    This is one for the EU Small Claims process:
    http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/resolving-disputes/small-claims/index_en.htm
    • SnowTiger
    • By SnowTiger 30th Jun 17, 7:53 PM
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    SnowTiger
    • #6
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:53 PM
    • #6
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:53 PM
    I could not pay the merchant directly. they asked for a bank transfer which I used tranferwise for. Is a chargeback or section 75 claim not valid when using transferwise?
    Originally posted by dangermouse007
    You can't use Section 75:

    If there's a third-party payment processor, Section 75 may NOT apply

    Some shoppers are finding credit card firms are rejecting Section 75 claims because the retailer they bought from used a third-party payment-processing firm to collect their payment – and there's widespread confusion about how these rules apply.

    Technically there must be a direct link between the debtor (that's you, the customer), the creditor (the credit card company – eg, American Express, Lloyds, Barclaycard) and the supplier (the retailer selling you the goods or service).

    If that relationship is deemed to be broken by the involvement of an intermediary or third party, Section 75 protection WON'T apply. Unfortunately though, even the Financial Ombudsman Service – which arbitrates Section 75 disputes – is unable to provide clear guidance on when this happens, leaving shoppers in the dark.
    As for Chargeback, Transferwise include this in the T&Cs:

    11.4 Chargebacks on your payment instrument. If you selected a Payin Method which gives you chargeback rights (for example in relation to your credit card, you may ask your card provider to reverse a transaction on your card), you promise that you will only exercise this chargeback right if:

    (a) we have breach this Agreement; or

    (b) there was an unauthorised use of your payment instrument.
    You promise that you will not exercise your chargeback right for reasons which we are not responsible, including a dispute with your recipient or there is insufficient funds in your payment instrument. If we need to investigate or take any actions in connection with a chargeback raised by you, we may charge you for our costs in doing so and may deduct such amount from your TransferWise Account.
    That statement may not absolve Transferwise from Visa and Mastercard rules. However, as Transferwise provided the service you paid them for, I think Chargeback is unlikely to be successful.

    Having said that, Chargeback against PayPal, which is also a funds transfer service, do seem to be possible.
    • eddddy
    • By eddddy 30th Jun 17, 7:53 PM
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    eddddy
    • #7
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:53 PM
    • #7
    • 30th Jun 17, 7:53 PM
    Had Transferwise breached their contract with you (e.g. by not paying the money into the merchant's bank account), then you could have made a s75 claim against them. But that's not the problem here.
    • dangermouse007
    • By dangermouse007 30th Jun 17, 10:14 PM
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    dangermouse007
    • #8
    • 30th Jun 17, 10:14 PM
    • #8
    • 30th Jun 17, 10:14 PM
    My understanding is that transferwise are like Paypal and you can initiate a chargeback with Paypal.
    • Heng Leng
    • By Heng Leng 1st Jul 17, 11:55 AM
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    Heng Leng
    • #9
    • 1st Jul 17, 11:55 AM
    • #9
    • 1st Jul 17, 11:55 AM
    You seem to to be missing the point

    You've essentially paid Transferwise for cash (with your card) and they've sent that cash to the account you instructed them to.

    That is where their responsibility starts and ends - they have nothing to do with what that cash is used for.
    • Chino
    • By Chino 1st Jul 17, 12:08 PM
    • 409 Posts
    • 195 Thanks
    Chino
    My understanding is that transferwise are like Paypal and you can initiate a chargeback with Paypal.
    Originally posted by dangermouse007
    Why do you understand that? TransferWise appears to offer an "end to end" service whereby monies are paid directly into the payee's bank account whereas PayPal transfers monies to the payee's PayPal account.

    Providing that a TransferWise payee receives the money paid by a payer, I don't understand the grounds by which the payer could open a chargeback dispute with TransferWise.
    • Harlan2
    • By Harlan2 6th Feb 18, 12:09 PM
    • 7 Posts
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    Harlan2
    I am now in a similar situation. Op what was the outcome of this please?
    • zx81
    • By zx81 6th Feb 18, 12:12 PM
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    zx81
    I don't think the OP is a regular visitor...
    • AllieKat
    • By AllieKat 6th Feb 18, 12:20 PM
    • 64 Posts
    • 41 Thanks
    AllieKat
    To even think of raising a chargeback or S75 against TransferWise in this situation is unethical by my standards (though ethics are highly personal).

    You were provided what you paid them for. A bank transfer for X amount. Nothing more, nothing less. Wasting everyone's time and money is why services like this can struggle and it also undermines claim rights long term. Save them for legitimate claims!
    • Harlan2
    • By Harlan2 6th Feb 18, 12:31 PM
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    Harlan2
    Yes I understand that viewpoint Alliekat, but Transferwize was not setup so that you can donate money to random people.
    They know full well that people are mostly using they're service to buy goods and services.
    • meer53
    • By meer53 6th Feb 18, 1:19 PM
    • 9,065 Posts
    • 13,185 Thanks
    meer53
    Transferwise have provided you with their services. End of. Transferwise are a company set up to enable you to send money to random people, it's your risk to use them.
    • seatbeltnoob
    • By seatbeltnoob 6th Feb 18, 1:22 PM
    • 343 Posts
    • 80 Thanks
    seatbeltnoob
    bank transfer is the same as essentially handing over cash when buying from someone from gumtree.

    If there's a fault with the product you are entirely at their mercy in terms of claims or returns.

    Only with gumtree you can inspect the goods before parting with your cash.

    Your only option is to contact the seller to make things right.
    • Harlan2
    • By Harlan2 6th Feb 18, 1:33 PM
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    Harlan2
    All the same could be said about paypal. Because in the end paypal are only able to desposit money into people's accounts using bank transfer which is non refundable. Paypal are only able to process charge backs because they hold direct debits on file. However there is nothing to prevent a fredulent party withdrawing money from paypal and then cancelling the direct debit. When that happens paypal still refunds the buyer but then have to use dept recovery agencies to get the money back.

    Still I'm not interested in symantics I want a factual answer from the OP
    • eDicky
    • By eDicky 6th Feb 18, 1:55 PM
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    eDicky
    Still I'm not interested in symantics I want a factual answer from the OP
    Originally posted by Harlan2
    Highly unlikely, dangermouse007 has not returned to the forum since that one day of posting.

    TransferWise acted on your instruction to convert funds and deliver them to a payee's bank account, which they did.

    Unlike PayPal, they have nothing to do with that payee and whatever transaction you might have been carrying out with them.

    You need to accept that TransferWise did not fail you in any way, it's very simple really.
    • Heng Leng
    • By Heng Leng 6th Feb 18, 4:29 PM
    • 4,359 Posts
    • 1,346 Thanks
    Heng Leng
    To even think of raising a chargeback or S75 against TransferWise in this situation is unethical by my standards (though ethics are highly personal).

    You were provided what you paid them for. A bank transfer for X amount. Nothing more, nothing less. Wasting everyone's time and money is why services like this can struggle and it also undermines claim rights long term. Save them for legitimate claims!
    Originally posted by AllieKat
    Ethics don't come into play.

    You paid for a funds transfer, assuming they met their contractual obligations that is the matter finished.

    Someone has been stupid and trying to transfer the loss to someone else.
    • AllieKat
    • By AllieKat 6th Feb 18, 6:40 PM
    • 64 Posts
    • 41 Thanks
    AllieKat
    Of course ethics come into play. You can file all the chargebacks and disputes you want (without winning), but it isn't, to me, ethical to do so.
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