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  • FIRST POST
    • lordgreenelf
    • By lordgreenelf 12th Jun 17, 10:43 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 10Thanks
    lordgreenelf
    BW Legal/Excel Pre-Pofa advice please
    • #1
    • 12th Jun 17, 10:43 PM
    BW Legal/Excel Pre-Pofa advice please 12th Jun 17 at 10:43 PM
    Hi all,

    Have had a good search but couldn't find anything exactly the same as my situation so after some advice please.

    I received a letter forwarded on from the current occupiers of my old house a few weeks back which was from the court indicating that BW on behalf of Excel are taking me to court over a PCN dating back to 15.03.2011 that I have no recollection of.

    I moved out of that house in June 2011 to my current address in a different part of the country, although the registration mark of the vehicle accused is still and has been owned by me as it's my private plate. (it's currently on a retention certificate and not assigned to a vehicle).

    The current occupiers have no recollection of any other letters being sent there that looked similar, but as these looked official they forwarded them on.

    The letter forwarded on was a "Notice of County Court Claim Issued" and came separately with the court claim form. I filed my defence on MCOL to the tune of "I've never received any paperwork from the company / they haven't tried to find me in 6 years / as it's pre-pofa they can't chase the RK as any alleged contract is between the land owner and the driver and the onus is on them to prove who the driver is"

    I declined mediation and the case has been transferred to my local court and I now need to serve my full defence, which is where I'm asking for some advice.

    Can I just resort to the pre-pofa side and rely on them not having any proof of who the driver was, or should I also include anything about them not serving any other papers on me at my current address despite the registration mark being registered there for 6 years, and that I haven't had a chance to go through the proper dispute procedure because of this?

    I have no idea where the car park they claim this happened is, and I'm over 100 miles away from where it is I can't state anything about signage - plus it's been 6 years so things could have changed.

    Are there any time limits on their claim? The date of alleged incident is 15th March 2011 and their notice of court claim and the court claim form was from 8th March 2017. I didn't receive it until 22nd March 2017 and filed my defence on 23rd March 2017.

    Many thanks for any help anyone can give.
    Last edited by lordgreenelf; 14-06-2017 at 12:08 AM.
Page 1
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 12th Jun 17, 11:09 PM
    • 5,672 Posts
    • 7,323 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #2
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:09 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:09 PM
    " declined mediation and the case has been transferred to my local court (St Helens) and I now need to serve my full defence, which is where I'm asking for some advice."

    Good man, mediation is highly flawed and the mediators don't have a clue about the private parking scam.
    BWLegal know this and because of the ignorance of mediators, they know they would have a better chance of winning.

    BWLegal know they are skating on very thin ice taking a pre POFA 2012 to court and they will also know that they will probably be in for yet another whooping in court

    The expert on this forum regarding Excel and BWLegal
    is the destroyer "lamilad"
    He will be along soon
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • lordgreenelf
    • By lordgreenelf 12th Jun 17, 11:12 PM
    • 10 Posts
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    lordgreenelf
    • #3
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:12 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:12 PM
    I figured it was pointless going to mediation as I wasn't at any point then or now even considering making any deal on this other than "screw you and your scamming bollox to hell!"
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 12th Jun 17, 11:16 PM
    • 5,672 Posts
    • 7,323 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #4
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:16 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:16 PM
    I figured it was pointless going to mediation as I wasn't at any point then or now even considering making any deal on this other than "screw you and your scamming bollox to hell!"
    Originally posted by lordgreenelf
    You are one of us

    All the help you need is available here

    READ THIS ...
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/vcs-slapped-with-costs-for.html

    VCS is run by the same ex clamper, Simon Renshaw-Smith = EXCEL

    Note the complete failure and incompetence of BWLegal
    Last edited by beamerguy; 12-06-2017 at 11:20 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jun 17, 11:18 PM
    • 49,017 Posts
    • 62,488 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:18 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Jun 17, 11:18 PM
    The letter forwarded on was a "Notice of County Court Claim Issued" and came separately with the court claim form. I filed my defence on MCOL to the tune of "I've never received any paperwork from the company / they haven't tried to find me in 6 years / as it's pre-pofa they can't chase the RK as any alleged contract is between the land owner and the driver and the onus is on them to prove who the driver is"
    Good. At least that states the basics.

    You are not filing a full defence now, you are filing a Witness Statement and evidence. Include the facts and timeline and the pre-POFA argument:

    Can I just resort to the pre-pofa side and rely on them not having any proof of who the driver was, or should I also include anything about them not serving any other papers on me at my current address despite the registration mark being registered there for 6 years, and that I haven't had a chance to go through the proper dispute procedure because of this?

    I have no idea where the car park they claim this happened is, and I'm over 100 miles away from where it is I can't state anything about signage - plus it's been 6 years so things could have changed.

    Are there any time limits on their claim? The date of alleged incident is 15th March 2011 and their notice of court claim and the court claim form was from 8th March 2017. I didn't receive it until 22nd March 2017 and filed my defence on 23rd March 2017.
    I reckon, read keepswimming's thread:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5576099

    because he/she posted their WS and skeleton argument there, and the case was similar.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lordgreenelf
    • By lordgreenelf 13th Jun 17, 12:03 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    lordgreenelf
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 17, 12:03 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 17, 12:03 AM
    Gold dust, thank you so much (and to keepswimming too!) I'll plagiarise their documents and post up my version of WS and SA tomorrow hopefully for any comments.
    • lordgreenelf
    • By lordgreenelf 13th Jun 17, 12:50 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    lordgreenelf
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 17, 12:50 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 17, 12:50 AM

    READ THIS ...
    parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/vcs-slapped-with-costs-for.html

    VCS is run by the same ex clamper, Simon Renshaw-Smith = EXCEL

    Note the complete failure and incompetence of BWLegal
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    And another precedent/case law that can be quoted in my WS?
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 13th Jun 17, 8:29 AM
    • 5,672 Posts
    • 7,323 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:29 AM
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 17, 8:29 AM
    And another precedent/case law that can be quoted in my WS?
    Originally posted by lordgreenelf
    Unfortunately, the small claims court does not set a precedent.
    Many judges don't keep up to speed with what is going on.

    But, you can use this to show what other judges have said.
    Most judges will not rule against their fellow judges but we
    all see this when a case is transfered to a higher court.

    It's a post code lottery when it comes to judges
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 13th Jun 17, 10:17 AM
    • 808 Posts
    • 1,728 Thanks
    Lamilad
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:17 AM
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 17, 10:17 AM
    Some other ongoing pre PoFA cases involving bw legal which you may want to watch with interest.....

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5594252&page=13#topofpage

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=112366

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=112635&hl=
    • lordgreenelf
    • By lordgreenelf 13th Jun 17, 11:08 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    lordgreenelf
    Thank you so much to all that have helped so far, it really is appreciated.

    I've put together an initial draft of my Witness Statement which needs to be served by Monday, so any advice is hugely welcomed. I've based it mainly off keepswimming's documents from the thread linked above. (Paragraphs are numbered, 1.5x line space, and pages numbered, exhibit7 is the FOI letter from whatdotheyknow.com)

    ................................

    
In the xxxxxxx County Court Case Number XXXXXXX
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________

    EXCEL PARKING SERVICES LTD Claimant
    Parties
    MR XXXXXXXXXX Defendant
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________

    Witness statement of Mr XXXXXXXX

    I am XXXXXXX the defendant in this matter and the facts in this Witness statement come from my personal knowledge. Where they are not within my own knowledge they are true to the best of my information and belief. I am unrepresented, with no experience of Court procedures. If I do not set out documents in the correct way, I trust the Court will excuse my inexperience.

    Suddenly, around 20th March 2017 I received a letter from the current occupants of my previous residency. Contained in this letter was a letter from BW Legal dated 8th March 2017 which was a "Notice of County Court Claim Issued” along with the Court Claim Form (Exhibits 1 & 2). As this was the first correspondence I had received in relation to this matter, I called BW Legal to find out more. They advised me that this related to an alleged parking charge notice issued on 15/03/2011 against a registration mark that I was the registered keeper of at this time. I have no recollection of this incident. 


    In June 2011 I moved house to another part of the country. The vehicle registration mark in question was also transferred to this address using section 6 of the DVLA V5C document. Although the registration mark is not currently assigned to a vehicle, the registration mark is still registered to the defendant and the defendant’s current address and held on a V778 Retention Document with the DVLA. Therefore the claimant has had every opportunity to contact me regarding this matter since 2011, but has not applied due care and diligence to locate the registered keeper of the registration mark in question.


    Because no previous correspondence from the claimant was received by the defendant at his current residence, the defendant has had no opportunity to initially defend, dispute or appeal this allegation with the either Excel, their representatives or POPLA.


    It is admitted that I was the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned on the date claimed, but the defendant denies being the driver at the time of the supposed event. To date I have not seen or been served any evidence of the vehicle concerned, or who the driver was and as this event has been resurrected from almost 6 years ago, it is impossible to expect a keeper to recall who might have been driving. In the last 6 years I have had several cars and changed insurers when the cars have changed, so no information that relates to that time can be found. I have had named drivers, but my cars have been used frequently over the years by friends and family as long as they had their own insurance.The defendant therefore puts Excel to strict proof that any contract can exist between the defendant and themselves.


    This unwarranted harassment and baseless litigation has caused me significant alarm and distress, during my research I discovered that Excel are issuing robo-claims for archive 'parking charges' in their thousands. It is clear that no checks have been made as to the facts of the alleged contract, signs or parking charge, in their undue haste to issue these claims.

    My data from the DVLA was supplied for the single strict purpose of enquiring who was driving, not for storing for 6 years then suing me as if I can now be held liable, in the hope I will not defend/will have lost the paperwork/will have moved house, or that I will be so scared that I will pay over £270 including the legal insult of 6 years' interest, for what was apparently an unproven £100 charge, allegedly incurred by another party, if incurred at all.

    It is apparent from court records reported in the public domain that this Claimant has been obtaining payments from keepers under false pretences - using the court as a cheap form of debt collection from the wrong 'registered keeper' parties - and has obtained default CCJs in the hundreds, despite never complying with the POFA 2012 and even bringing pre-POFA cases to the Courts, as here.


    In 2012, Excel were sanctioned by the DVLA for stating or implying in signs or documents that a registered keeper could be held 'liable for the payment of charges' and/or had 'legal responsibility' to name the driver. It is contended that this is exactly what Excel are now doing in this claim, even though the alleged act occurred before any POFA 2012 legislation came into force, conduct which was identified in 2012 as 'a significant breach' of their Trade Body Code of Practice with the British Parking Association. So serious a matter was this, Excel were banned from obtaining data by the DVLA for three months. (Exhibit 7)


    As I have seen no copy of the contract the Claimant has with the landowner to assign the right to enter into contracts with the public,and to make claims and take civil action against drivers in their own name in 2011, the Claimant can have no locus standi at the time of this parking event, at best they were contractors of a principal, the landowner.


    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.

    Signed

    Dated


    I'll work on the SA and further evidence once I know this is good to go.
    Last edited by lordgreenelf; 14-06-2017 at 1:05 AM.
    • lordgreenelf
    • By lordgreenelf 14th Jun 17, 4:45 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    lordgreenelf
    Apologies for the bump but keen to get the WS finalised today then start work on the SA and bundle.

    Any feedback is hugely appreciated.

    In case it's of any further use, the defence I filed is below - although this was done before I found this magnificent forum and all it's lovely helpful members!


    Defence
    The claim is for a Parking Charge Notice dating back to
    15/03/2011. It was sent to an address that I have not lived at
    since May 2011, so I have not had any notification of this claim
    until I was sent the court claim forms to my new address by the
    person that now resides in my old address. The first I knew about
    this PCN was today, 22/03/2017. I therefore do not accept that
    receiving a court claim form as a first notification of an alleged
    debt is acceptable or the correct method for pursuing said alleged
    debt.
    I have not received any previous notices relating to this matter -
    no notice to keeper, no request for details of who the driver was,
    no ability to dispute the claim, or appeal the PCN in it's
    entirety.
    The registration mark of the vehicle in question is still
    registered to me, and the claimants could therefore have found out
    my new address at any point and sent any correspondence to me
    there, but failed to do so.
    When I contacted the claimants representatives (BW Legal) they
    could not tell me what the make and model of the vehicle in
    question was, only the registration number. They have not provided
    any photographic or other evidence that this PCN relates to me or
    any car registered to me as the keeper. Therefore there is no
    proof that this PCN even relates to any vehicle that I had
    registered to me as the keeper, it could be a cloned registration
    mark on another vehicle.
    I also dispute this PCN as it dates back to before POFA 2012
    legislation was introduced in November 2012. Therefore the parking
    company (and BW Legal) cannot hold the registered keeper liable
    for this parking charge. I cannot confirm that I was driving the
    vehicle on this date, and I cannot confirm who the driver was at
    the time, as it was over 6 years ago.
    I apologise if this defence is filed late, but I have only just
    received the court claim form which was dated 8th March 2017,
    today.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Jun 17, 5:13 PM
    • 6,853 Posts
    • 5,877 Thanks
    The Deep
    If this gets to court, and you can ensure that it does by counter claiming for "unreasonable behaviour" costs for wasting your time, it looks like this company is in for another kicking. Have you read this?

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com.es/
    Last edited by The Deep; 14-06-2017 at 5:15 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 14th Jun 17, 6:49 PM
    • 808 Posts
    • 1,728 Thanks
    Lamilad
    I cannot confirm that I was driving the vehicle on this date
    You have suggested in your opening post that you definitely were not the driver and don't even know the car park... So why make this vague statement that suggests you could have been the driver?

    Better to categorically state that you definitely were not the driver and the claimant is held to strict proof.

    In the absence of any law allowing them to transfer liability from the driver to the keeper they must either prove you were driving (impossible as you weren't) or concede that they have no case and no prospect of success
    • lordgreenelf
    • By lordgreenelf 15th Jun 17, 1:37 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    lordgreenelf
    Yep agree, however the initial defence has already been submitted, and was done before I'd researched things fully on here due to the tight timeline I had in submitting it.

    If the WS sound OK I'll get that boxed off and start on the SA.
    • lordgreenelf
    • By lordgreenelf 15th Jun 17, 4:44 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    lordgreenelf
    Just so I'm clear on what I need to do at this stage -

    Send a paper copy of my Witness Statement and all Evidence/Exhibits I'll be relying on in court to the Court by Special Delivery? (Can I hand deliver this instead?) (Intending on putting this in a document wallet with an index and each section numbered in a different plastic sleeve)

    Send a paper copy of my Witness Statement and all Evidence/Exhibits I'll be relying on in court to BW Legal by normal 1st class post with a Proof of Posting? (Can I email this instead?)

    Anything else at this stage?

    Thanks again
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jun 17, 12:53 AM
    • 49,017 Posts
    • 62,488 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I wouldn't waste pounds on Special Delivery, I would hand-deliver it to your local court, with all pages numbered, contents page and the claim number on the front page inside, and on the document wallet outside.

    Send a paper copy of my Witness Statement and all Evidence/Exhibits I'll be relying on in court to BW Legal by normal 1st class post with a Proof of Posting? (Can I email this instead?)
    Yes.

    Anything else at this stage?
    Nope.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lordgreenelf
    • By lordgreenelf 28th Jun 17, 5:31 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    lordgreenelf
    Thought I'd update on this one after the court case this afternoon.

    BW farmed out their representation to another local "professional" after I moved the case to my local court. As the WS of BW was signed by somebody not in court, the judge tore them apart with legal mumbo jumbo that I didn't understand but caught something to do with a 29.7, and that because they hadn't filed one then she (the judge) didn't have to give any weight to the WS provided. Also if they had have filed a 29.7 then she wouldn't have expected any other representation to turn up either. She wasn't happy with them at all!

    Basically, after all of that, the case was dismissed on the grounds that it was pre-POFA, and even if she had have taken any weight to the claimants WS, they did not prove who the driver was so there can be no case against me as the Registered Keeper. Hurrah!

    She dismissed me from the court but asked the claimants representative to remain. I heard the judge asking her if "she worked for BW Legal as she's had just about enough of their ......." and the door closed behind me. Lets hope that word is getting around and they face more judges like her with their made up !!!!!!!! and more people defend against them successfully to incur costs on them.

    She awarded me expenses, but can I still apply for further costs under CPR 38.6 and also Rule 27.14(2)(g), for the time I spent preparing my defence?

    Huge thanks to everyone who helped me out with this, couldn't have done it without you!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jun 17, 3:47 PM
    • 49,017 Posts
    • 62,488 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thought I'd update on this one after the court case this afternoon.

    BW farmed out their representation to another local "professional" after I moved the case to my local court. As the WS of BW was signed by somebody not in court, the judge tore them apart with legal mumbo jumbo that I didn't understand but caught something to do with a 29.7, and that because they hadn't filed one then she (the judge) didn't have to give any weight to the WS provided. Also if they had have filed a 29.7 then she wouldn't have expected any other representation to turn up either. She wasn't happy with them at all!

    Basically, after all of that, the case was dismissed on the grounds that it was pre-POFA, and even if she had have taken any weight to the claimants WS, they did not prove who the driver was so there can be no case against me as the Registered Keeper. Hurrah!

    She dismissed me from the court but asked the claimants representative to remain. I heard the judge asking her if "she worked for BW Legal as she's had just about enough of their ......." and the door closed behind me. Lets hope that word is getting around and they face more judges like her with their made up !!!!!!!! and more people defend against them successfully to incur costs on them.

    She awarded me expenses, but can I still apply for further costs under CPR 38.6 and also Rule 27.14(2)(g), for the time I spent preparing my defence?

    Huge thanks to everyone who helped me out with this, couldn't have done it without you!
    Originally posted by lordgreenelf
    Sorry your post was missed last night - but, Yay! Well done!!

    That is three wins in a row (2 court hearings and one late discontinuance) I've read about here in the past 5 minutes! Fantastic stuff.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jun 17, 11:48 PM
    • 49,017 Posts
    • 62,488 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    She dismissed me from the court but asked the claimants representative to remain.

    I heard the judge asking her if "she worked for BW Legal as she's had just about enough of their ......." and the door closed behind me.
    Even better!!!!!!!!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 30th Jun 17, 12:07 AM
    • 5,672 Posts
    • 7,323 Thanks
    beamerguy
    She dismissed me from the court but asked the claimants representative to remain.

    I heard the judge asking her if "she worked for BW Legal as she's had just about enough of their ......." and the door closed behind me.

    guess the judge meant

    BWLegal .... stupidity and complete incompetence

    We know that and so do the courts

    BWLegal ...... give it up, your incompetence is spreading
    like a wild fire. It's now time to admit to the SRA that
    you really are worthy of being sanctioned
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
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