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  • FIRST POST
    • mc303
    • By mc303 15th Mar 17, 4:26 PM
    • 56Posts
    • 2Thanks
    mc303
    Yes it's The Car
    • #1
    • 15th Mar 17, 4:26 PM
    Yes it's The Car 15th Mar 17 at 4:26 PM
    hi, i have read up as much as i can... i will try to keep this short
    test drove second hand car, noticed fault, dealer said fault will be repaired before hand over, hand over day while driving home noticed fault still present, told dealer, returned car 3 times for repair, fault still present, asked dealer for refund, dealer said no, went to CC Company under section 75 breach of contract
    the consumer rights act 2015
    Under section 24
    sub section
    (5)A consumer who has the right to a price reduction and the final right to reject may only exercise one (not both), and may only do so in one of these situations—

    (a)after one repair or one replacement, the goods do not conform to the contract

    CC refused section 75
    took case to TFO, TFO said no, reason being that dealer is offering repair, so here is my question, i was turned down because the dealer offered repair, i returned the car to them 3 times, i gave them 3 chances to repair, they denied the fault i complained about existed, i had 4 independent reports all clearly stating the fault is present, why oh why have i been rejected for this claim?? am i missing something?
    any advise truly appreciated.
    Thank you
Page 1
    • naedanger
    • By naedanger 15th Mar 17, 4:39 PM
    • 2,149 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    naedanger
    • #2
    • 15th Mar 17, 4:39 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Mar 17, 4:39 PM
    hi, i have read up as much as i can... i will try to keep this short
    test drove second hand car, noticed fault, dealer said fault will be repaired before hand over, hand over day while driving home noticed fault still present, told dealer, returned car 3 times for repair, fault still present, asked dealer for refund, dealer said no, went to CC Company under section 75 breach of contract
    the consumer rights act 2015
    Under section 24
    sub section
    (5)A consumer who has the right to a price reduction and the final right to reject may only exercise one (not both), and may only do so in one of these situations—

    (a)after one repair or one replacement, the goods do not conform to the contract

    CC refused section 75
    took case to TFO, TFO said no, reason being that dealer is offering repair, so here is my question, i was turned down because the dealer offered repair, i returned the car to them 3 times, i gave them 3 chances to repair, they denied the fault i complained about existed, i had 4 independent reports all clearly stating the fault is present, why oh why have i been rejected for this claim?? am i missing something?
    any advise truly appreciated.
    Thank you
    Originally posted by mc303
    Based on what you have said I cannot think of anything you are missing.

    I assume TFO means the Financial Ombudsman. Have they given you their final decision? If so you can still take legal action.
    • mc303
    • By mc303 15th Mar 17, 4:45 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    mc303
    • #3
    • 15th Mar 17, 4:45 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Mar 17, 4:45 PM
    Hi naedanger, yes TFO is what you stated, i have read about legal action but the lowest solicitor's fees i can find in my area are 2-3k for their services, this takes a huge chunk out of the total cost of the claim the TFO told me that they have spoke to the dealer today and they agreed to call me today to make arrangements for repair, as of yet, nothing... i have a right to refuse the case workers decision and bump it up one level... it's so stressfull.
    • naedanger
    • By naedanger 15th Mar 17, 5:20 PM
    • 2,149 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    naedanger
    • #4
    • 15th Mar 17, 5:20 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Mar 17, 5:20 PM
    Hi naedanger, yes TFO is what you stated, i have read about legal action but the lowest solicitor's fees i can find in my area are 2-3k for their services, this takes a huge chunk out of the total cost of the claim the TFO told me that they have spoke to the dealer today and they agreed to call me today to make arrangements for repair, as of yet, nothing... i have a right to refuse the case workers decision and bump it up one level... it's so stressfull.
    Originally posted by mc303
    First bump it up to the next level.

    Explain that the cc company is not complying with the CRA which states (in section 24(5)(a)) that if the attempt at a repair or replacement is unsuccessful, then the customer has a right to a refund. Furthermore since fault has been present from the day you took possession of the car the refund should be a full refund. I would add that I would expect the FO to ensure, as a minimum, the cc company honoured its statutory obligations to its customers and so you are very disappointed at their preliminary assessment.

    If the final outcome is still not satisfactory you can take legal action yourself - you don't need to use a solicitor you can represent yourself. But you may have to pay costs if you lose.

    Don't start any legal action until you have exhausted the FO process. If you do decide to take legal action I suggest you sue the credit card company rather than the car dealer. That way if you win you should not have much problem enforcing payment.
    • mc303
    • By mc303 15th Mar 17, 5:29 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    mc303
    • #5
    • 15th Mar 17, 5:29 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Mar 17, 5:29 PM
    Thanks again, if i lose the case, except for my fees what else can i expect too pay?
    suing The CC company was the last thing on my mind, thats a huge step!
    • wealdroam
    • By wealdroam 15th Mar 17, 5:43 PM
    • 18,379 Posts
    • 15,258 Thanks
    wealdroam
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 17, 5:43 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 17, 5:43 PM
    Thanks again, if i lose the case, except for my fees what else can i expect too pay?
    suing The CC company was the last thing on my mind, thats a huge step!
    Originally posted by mc303
    And there's no need to involve a solicitor.

    Just send a letter before action to the CC Co and have a read of MSE's Small Claims Court guide.

    Google letter before action for many samples.


    If you lose you are unlikely to have to pay anything more than your court fees - it's all in that MSE article.
    • mc303
    • By mc303 15th Mar 17, 5:47 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    mc303
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 17, 5:47 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 17, 5:47 PM
    thank you wealdroam, yes i have read court guide but it does not explain how much i would have to compensate the defendant if i lose the case.
    Thank you
    • naedanger
    • By naedanger 15th Mar 17, 5:57 PM
    • 2,149 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    naedanger
    • #8
    • 15th Mar 17, 5:57 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Mar 17, 5:57 PM
    thank you wealdroam, yes i have read court guide but it does not explain how much i would have to compensate the defendant if i lose the case.
    Thank you
    Originally posted by mc303
    There is a section "Expenses can be awarded against you if you lose" in the following article. Plus you would not be able to recover the court fees.

    http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-claims-court

    However don't jump the gun. Wait for FO to decide. I would hope someone further up the line at the FO Service will agree with you.

    At this stage put your effort into your next reply to the FO.
    • mc303
    • By mc303 15th Mar 17, 6:05 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    mc303
    • #9
    • 15th Mar 17, 6:05 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Mar 17, 6:05 PM
    The next effort being decline case workers decision Explain that the cc company is not complying with the CRA which states (in section 24(5)(a)) that if the attempt at a repair or replacement is unsuccessful, then the customer has a right to a refund. Furthermore since fault has been present from the day you took possession of the car the refund should be a full refund. I would add that I would expect the FO to ensure, as a minimum, the cc company honoured its statutory obligations to its customers and so you are very disappointed at their preliminary assessment.
    and ask for the case to go the "ombudsman"?
    • naedanger
    • By naedanger 15th Mar 17, 6:25 PM
    • 2,149 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    naedanger
    The next effort being decline case workers decision Explain that the cc company is not complying with the CRA which states (in section 24(5)(a)) that if the attempt at a repair or replacement is unsuccessful, then the customer has a right to a refund. Furthermore since fault has been present from the day you took possession of the car the refund should be a full refund. I would add that I would expect the FO to ensure, as a minimum, the cc company honoured its statutory obligations to its customers and so you are very disappointed at their preliminary assessment.
    and ask for the case to go the "ombudsman"?
    Originally posted by mc303
    That is what I would do.
    • mc303
    • By mc303 15th Mar 17, 6:25 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    mc303
    i should add, the CC turned me down, i went to FO on the basis that i was treated unfairly, the FO turned me down because,, CRA didnt come into it and the FO has no jurisdiction regarding car dealers, or words to that effect, they are saying the CC company treated me fairly because the dealer offered a repair, but i had already taken the vehicle back to the dealer 3 times? anyone?
    Thank you

    N.B FO are saying my case is against the CC for being unfairly treated, FO says CC has done nothing wrong conducting their decision?
    Last edited by mc303; 15-03-2017 at 6:34 PM.
    • wealdroam
    • By wealdroam 15th Mar 17, 6:50 PM
    • 18,379 Posts
    • 15,258 Thanks
    wealdroam
    i should add, the CC turned me down, i went to FO on the basis that i was treated unfairly, the FO turned me down because,, CRA didnt come into it and the FO has no jurisdiction regarding car dealers, or words to that effect, they are saying the CC company treated me fairly because the dealer offered a repair, but i had already taken the vehicle back to the dealer 3 times? anyone?
    Thank you

    N.B FO are saying my case is against the CC for being unfairly treated, FO says CC has done nothing wrong conducting their decision?
    Originally posted by mc303
    Quite simply, if you have a claim under The CRA against the car seller, then you have exactly the same claim against the credit supplier.

    That's what Section 75 of The Consumer Credit Act effectively says.

    Your last sentence above is a little confusing.
    I thought 'CC' meant credit card company, but perhaps not.
    Did you use a credit card to pay any part of the purchase price?
    Last edited by wealdroam; 15-03-2017 at 6:54 PM.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 15th Mar 17, 6:53 PM
    • 10,860 Posts
    • 8,111 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Are you definitely sure they were dealing with it as a section 75 claim and not a chargeback?

    If so, I would include (when appealing the FOS decision) that under section 75 of the consumer credit act, if the debtor has a claim against the supplier then he shall have a like claim against the creditor. You have a claim for a full refund against the supplier under consumer rights act therefore you have a claim for a full refund against the creditor.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • naedanger
    • By naedanger 15th Mar 17, 6:55 PM
    • 2,149 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    naedanger
    i should add, the CC turned me down, i went to FO on the basis that i was treated unfairly, the FO turned me down because,, CRA didnt come into it and the FO has no legislation regarding car dealers, or words to that effect, they are saying the CC company treated me fairly because the dealer offered a repair, but i had already taken the vehicle back to the dealer 3 times? anyone?
    Thank you

    N.B FO are saying my case is against the CC for being unfairly treated, FO says CC has done nothing wrong conducting their decision?
    Originally posted by mc303
    I cannot understand CC or FO reasoning without seeing the detail of what they are saying. Did you pay at least something on a credit card?

    Did you make clear you complaint was that the credit card company is treating you unfairly by failing to accept that it is jointly liable (under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974) for the breach of contract by the trader.

    The trader breached the contract when they failed to provide a full refund as required under section 24(5)(a) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. That section requires a trader to offer a refund if their attempt at a repair or replacement is unsuccessful. In your case they had [x] unsuccessful attempts.

    As the trader will not provide the refund the cc company are legally obliged to do so. {in my view}
    Last edited by naedanger; 15-03-2017 at 6:59 PM.
    • naedanger
    • By naedanger 15th Mar 17, 6:57 PM
    • 2,149 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    naedanger
    Are you definitely sure they were dealing with it as a section 75 claim and not a chargeback?
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    To the op: the above would explain the cc and FO response.
    • mc303
    • By mc303 15th Mar 17, 7:01 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    mc303
    this is exatcly what i thought regarding the claim, there was a confusion in the begin about a chargeback because the CC did refund but later reversed the decision after the dealer defended the claim,
    i was just listening to the playback of the decision and the case worker clearly states that the CRA does not come into it, they believe because the dealer has offered a repair this is the best outcome the CC can offer???

    is it possible to upload the final decline telephone conversation i had today with FO?
    • naedanger
    • By naedanger 15th Mar 17, 7:18 PM
    • 2,149 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    naedanger
    this is exatcly what i thought regarding the claim, there was a confusion in the begin about a chargeback because the CC did refund but later reversed the decision after the dealer defended the claim,
    i was just listening to the playback of the decision and the case worker clearly states that the CRA does not come into it, they believe because the dealer has offered a repair this is the best outcome the CC can offer???

    is it possible to upload the final decline telephone conversation i had today with FO?
    Originally posted by mc303
    I would respond along the following lines:

    I am unwilling to accept your decision therefore please ensure my case is escalated to a Financial Ombudsman. Your proposal that I offer the dealer yet another opportunity to fix the car gives me no confidence the matter will be resolved as I have, as you know, already given them [x ]previous attempts.

    I do not understand how you can conclude [name of cc company] are treating me fairly when they are failing to accept that they are jointly liable (under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974) for the breach of contract by the trader.

    The trader breached the contract when they failed to provide a full refund as required under section 24(5)(a) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. That section legally requires a trader to offer a refund if their attempt at a repair or replacement is unsuccessful. In my case I have already given them x attempts all of which were unsuccessful and so I am now legally entitled to a full refund.

    As the trader will not provide the refund the cc company are legally obliged to do so.
    • mc303
    • By mc303 15th Mar 17, 7:27 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    mc303
    i'm only allowed one PM every 60 mins lol, can you pm your email? only if this is allowed i would like you to read their decision
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 15th Mar 17, 7:42 PM
    • 1,390 Posts
    • 1,377 Thanks
    steampowered
    Did you tell the TFO that you had been back for a repair 3 times and rejected the goods?

    Normally the Financial Ombudsman invites your comments on its proposed decision and allow you to appeal up the decision up to an Ombudsman if you are not happy?

    By the way, FOS decisions are public (http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.uk/) so there are no issues giving us a link to the decision in your case.
    • mc303
    • By mc303 15th Mar 17, 7:47 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    mc303
    yes told the FO i took the car back 3 times, dealer would not accept fault, dealer repaired other faults with the car would not accept the fault i was suggesting, i even got a report from the main dealer which cost £80 , they confirmed the fault, the FO said there was a new MOT on the car ?? yes i think i should up appeal the decision to the Ombudsman
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