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  • FIRST POST
    • Rjones
    • By Rjones 10th Mar 17, 4:37 PM
    • 11Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Rjones
    CEL Defense for overstay @ Gym Car Park
    • #1
    • 10th Mar 17, 4:37 PM
    CEL Defense for overstay @ Gym Car Park 10th Mar 17 at 4:37 PM
    Hi All,

    In February last year i overstayed at the gym car park - there is a 3 hour limit and I stayed there for 4 hours.
    I've submitted my " I wish to defend all of my claim" on the MCOL and have my defense below.


    Would anyone be able to provide any useful feedback on either my defense or if I can go to the gym and ask for them to cancel the claim or contact CEL to cancel the charge etc?
    Defense is below


    ================================================== ======================
    ================================================== ======================
    ================================================== ======================


    I am ******* the defendant in this matter and registered keeper of vehicle *****. I currently reside at ***.

    The Claim Form issued on the **** by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “The Legal Team”.

    I deny I am liable for the entirety of the claim for each and every one of the following reasons:

    1/ This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. None of this applies in this material case.

    2/ This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol:
    (a)There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction, despite the Defendant's requests for this and further information.
    (b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information. The covering letter merely contains a supposed PCN number with no contravention nor photographs.
    (c) The Claim form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information.!

    3/ I put the Claimant to strict proof that it issued a compliant notice under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.!
    Henry Greenslade, lead adjudicator of POPLA in 2015 and an eminent barrister and parking law expert stated that “However keeper information is obtained, there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort.”!

    4/ Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    (a) Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
    (b) Non existent ANPR 'data use' signage - breach of ICO rules and the BPA Code of Practice.
    (c) It is believed the signage was not lit and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.
    (d) No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.

    5/ BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    (a) the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.
    (b) the sum pursued exceeds £100.
    (c) there is/was no compliant landowner contract.

    6/ No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.

    7/ No legitimate interest - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:


    8/ The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    9/ The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.

    10/ The claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:
    (a) failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 21 February 2017
    (b) failed to respond to a letter from the Defendant dated *** requesting further information and details of the claim

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence Statement are true.

    Signed
    Date
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th Mar 17, 5:03 PM
    • 15,168 Posts
    • 19,119 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 10th Mar 17, 5:03 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Mar 17, 5:03 PM
    you should ALWAYS try to get the retailer (as in GYM) or better still the landholder (if different) , or MA (if its a retail park or a rental etc) to cancel the charge , or at least write a letter saying they do not wish a court claim to be pursued

    the more ammunition you have , the better , yet people enver seem to think about doing this , despite what the NEWBIES sticky thread says

    a judge will always be swayed by what a landholder has to say on the matter
    Last edited by Redx; 12-03-2017 at 1:59 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Mar 17, 5:47 PM
    • 48,929 Posts
    • 62,421 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 10th Mar 17, 5:47 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Mar 17, 5:47 PM
    Looks fine at a quick glance. CEL shouldn't continue...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Rjones
    • By Rjones 12th Mar 17, 1:29 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Rjones
    • #4
    • 12th Mar 17, 1:29 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Mar 17, 1:29 PM
    Thanks for the feedback, am i ok to submit as a final?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Mar 17, 6:59 PM
    • 48,929 Posts
    • 62,421 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 12th Mar 17, 6:59 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Mar 17, 6:59 PM
    Yes go for it!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Rjones
    • By Rjones 12th Mar 17, 7:53 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Rjones
    • #6
    • 12th Mar 17, 7:53 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Mar 17, 7:53 PM
    Thanks :-)
    • Rjones
    • By Rjones 15th Mar 17, 7:51 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Rjones
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 17, 7:51 AM
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 17, 7:51 AM
    Hi,

    I've tried to submit my full defense, after selecting the "I wish to defend ALL of this claim" but now am experiencing difficulty logging in online, which simply has a poor quality set up for reminder of login details etc.

    Any advice/help available?
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 15th Mar 17, 8:15 AM
    • 3,693 Posts
    • 5,230 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #8
    • 15th Mar 17, 8:15 AM
    • #8
    • 15th Mar 17, 8:15 AM
    have you contacted the landowner/MA/the gym as outlined by Redx?
    if the landowner/gym is playing ball, then this will be a valuable defence point, so much so that you can claim for unreasonable behaviour from the ppc
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Mar 17, 2:39 PM
    • 48,929 Posts
    • 62,421 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 15th Mar 17, 2:39 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Mar 17, 2:39 PM
    Hi,

    I've tried to submit my full defense, after selecting the "I wish to defend ALL of this claim" but now am experiencing difficulty logging in online, which simply has a poor quality set up for reminder of login details etc.
    Originally posted by Rjones
    The advice in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread from bargepole tells you NOT to use MCOL for your defence.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Rjones
    • By Rjones 15th Mar 17, 5:26 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Rjones
    have you contacted the landowner/MA/the gym as outlined by Redx?
    if the landowner/gym is playing ball, then this will be a valuable defence point, so much so that you can claim for unreasonable behaviour from the ppc
    Originally posted by Half_way
    Visited them on Saturday and they told me that they can cancel it up to a certain point, but after a long period they aren't able to do anything else - showing them my paperwork they said they weren't able to help any further.

    So far, I have submitted the "Acknowledgement of claim" online, and also got my defense written up.
    Had a look at the stickied newbies post but could not find what to do next.

    Coupon-Mad, is the next stage to print our my defense and post it to them if I'm not meant to be submitting it through the MCOL?

    Many thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Mar 17, 11:17 PM
    • 48,929 Posts
    • 62,421 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes or email it to the CCBC at Northampton with the claim number and 'defence' (NOT defense') in the subject line.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Mar 17, 11:43 PM
    • 15,168 Posts
    • 19,119 Thanks
    Redx
    Had a look at the stickied newbies post but could not find what to do next.

    Coupon-Mad, is the next stage to print our my defense and post it to them if I'm not meant to be submitting it through the MCOL?

    Many thanks
    Originally posted by Rjones
    check post #2 of that thread and especially READ the bargepole links

    if you have not read the basic information provided by bargepole you really are hamstrung
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Rjones
    • By Rjones 16th Mar 17, 6:47 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Rjones
    Thanks ^

    I've read above and it seems to make more sense now, and also the newbies post (incredibly helpful!)

    Another question I have in relation to this, or specifically the first sentence regarding "I am the keeper of vehicle xxxxxxxx"
    At this point in time, or more accurately since May of last year, I no longer own the car and have sold it on, do I need to take any amendments to my defence?

    Claim Number
    Between:
    Civil Enforcement Limited v
    Defence Statement

    I am MR EXAMPLE the defendant in this matter and registered keeper of vehicle XX99ZZZ I currently reside at 4 FAKE STREET, FAKE COUNTY..

    The Claim Form issued on the 22 February 2017 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “The Legal Team”.

    I deny I am liable for the entirety of the claim for each and every one of the following reasons:

    1/ This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. None of this applies in this material case.

    2/ This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol:
    (a)There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction, despite the Defendant's requests for this and further information.
    (b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information. The covering letter merely contains a supposed PCN number with no contravention nor photographs.
    (c) The Claim form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information.!

    3/ I put the Claimant to strict proof that it issued a compliant notice under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.!
    Henry Greenslade, lead adjudicator of POPLA in 2015 and an eminent barrister and parking law expert stated that “However keeper information is obtained, there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort.”!

    4/ Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    (a) Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
    (b) Non existent ANPR 'data use' signage - breach of ICO rules and the BPA Code of Practice.
    (c) It is believed the signage was not lit and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.
    (d) No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.

    5/ BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    (a) the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.
    (b) the sum pursued exceeds £100.
    (c) there is/was no compliant landowner contract.

    6/ No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.

    7/ No legitimate interest - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:


    8/ The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    9/ The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.

    10/ The claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:
    (a) failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 21 February 2017
    (b) failed to respond to a letter from the Defendant dated *** requesting further information and details of the claim

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence Statement are true.

    Signed



    Date
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Mar 17, 1:08 AM
    • 48,929 Posts
    • 62,421 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    At this point in time, or more accurately since May of last year, I no longer own the car and have sold it on, do I need to take any amendments to my defence?
    Nope.

    I am MR EXAMPLE the defendant in this matter and registered keeper of vehicle XX99ZZZ I currently reside at 4 FAKE STREET, FAKE COUNTY..
    On pepipoo, Southpaw is keen to get people to remove that. No need for that flowery introduction because your headings already say who you are, and you are signing it.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Rjones
    • By Rjones 19th Mar 17, 10:16 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Rjones
    Thanks Coupon-mad,

    I've made those changes and printed my letter to post, should I expect to receive anything after this?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Mar 17, 10:36 AM
    • 15,168 Posts
    • 19,119 Thanks
    Redx
    Thanks Coupon-mad,

    I've made those changes and printed my letter to post, should I expect to receive anything after this?
    Originally posted by Rjones
    all explained by bargepole in the posts you say you have read (linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Marktheshark
    • By Marktheshark 19th Mar 17, 10:43 AM
    • 5,542 Posts
    • 6,963 Thanks
    Marktheshark
    What is the counter claim fee these days ?
    This sounds like the gym have the power to cancel the penalty but refuse to do so.
    Brexit will become whatever they invent it to be.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 19th Mar 17, 10:50 AM
    • 789 Posts
    • 1,703 Thanks
    Lamilad
    I've made those changes and printed my letter to post
    Originally posted by Rjones
    Don't waste money on paper, ink, envelopes, stamps, or time faffing around at the post office.

    use email as advised by CM
    Yes or email it to the CCBC at Northampton with the claim number and 'defence' (NOT defense') in the subject line.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thanks Coupon-mad,
    should I expect to receive anything after this?
    Originally posted by Rjones
    The newbies thread explains the process step by step. If they continue the next thing you'll get is the directions questionnaire (DQ)
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 11:00 AM
    • 40,190 Posts
    • 80,274 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Have you cancelled your gym membership yet, explaining why it has now become too expensive?

    Have you left negative feedback about the gym on social media explaining that the parking there is run by scammers and the gym won't help genuine customers?
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 19th Mar 17, 1:32 PM
    • 3,693 Posts
    • 5,230 Thanks
    Half_way
    Visited them on Saturday and they told me that they can cancel it up to a certain point, but after a long period they aren't able to do anything else - showing them my paperwork they said they weren't able to help any further.

    So far, I have submitted the "Acknowledgement of claim" online, and also got my defense written up.
    Had a look at the stickied newbies post but could not find what to do next.

    Coupon-Mad, is the next stage to print our my defense and post it to them if I'm not meant to be submitting it through the MCOL?

    Many thanks
    Originally posted by Rjones
    #

    The Gym has spouted the usual crap that PPCs tell them to, and you have taken it hook line and sinker.
    you have been fobbed off, conned, tricked and lied to and you have rolled over and accepted this
    Without the support of the principal, CEL can not pursue this in court.
    It does not matter what it says in any contract./agreement between the Gym and CEL regarding cancellation, without support from the principal the parking company has no authority to purse this matter.
    the Gym can withdraw this authority right up to the hearing I believe that a representative from the gym can also withdraw this authority right up to the point of judgement.

    try something like this
    Re parking charge notice__________ issued by Civil Enforcement Limited
    We ______________ name of Gym, do not support our agents, Civil Enforcement Limited pursuing the issue of a parking_ charge notice issued to _____________ in respect of a vehicle registration __________ through the court system and wasting valuable court time and public money on an issue that can easily be resolved out of court ____________ (name) was a customer of ours, using the gym for the duration of the parking event.
    We therefore ask that this unreasonable action by our agents against one of our vauled customers is struck out ( cancelled) with immediate effect

    Signed Name ( of gym employee/representative)_____________

    date___________________

    If they refuse to cancel, or agree to that, then look into a counter claim.
    Also take a good look at any terms and conditions regarding your gym membership, do as Fruitcake mentions.
    and also look into a counter claim against the Gym as a result of their agents actions.
    keep an accurate log of how much time you are spending on this, plus any other costs, you may be able to then use that in a claim against the gym for expenses / costs as you will have a hard figure and evidence.
    Plus if you get some money out of the rotten system, then it may make it a little easier, and worth while for all of us who give up our time freely to respond and help those victims of the PPC world, such as yourself.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
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