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  • FIRST POST
    • Romeo_
    • By Romeo_ 8th Mar 17, 1:00 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 13Thanks
    Romeo_
    Evidence Submission
    • #1
    • 8th Mar 17, 1:00 PM
    Evidence Submission 8th Mar 17 at 1:00 PM
    Hi,

    I am a couple of weeks away from a court appearance for a parking charge. I have already submitted my witness statement in January. Can I redo my witness statement to add points?

    BW Legal did their witness statement after I had done mine and I’d like to refute theirs and add further evidence.

    Thanks
Page 1
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 8th Mar 17, 1:56 PM
    • 858 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 17, 1:56 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 17, 1:56 PM
    There will be no provision in your order for a witness statement in reply. However, if they have added new things into their statement, then you can do one of two things:


    1. a second statement dealing with the new points, do it asap and serve it on the other side and file it at court. Say you will seek leave to rely on it because of the new matters raised in their witness statement (matters which really should have been disclosed during the pre-action phase, according to paragraph 6 of the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct and Protocols). Draw attention to the fact that their statement was served out of time.
    OR
    2. do a Skeleton Argument - this is a summary of your response to the claim and an amalgamation of all the points in your Defence and Statement. In the small claims there is generally no order made for parties to file/serve Skeletons, but in other types of claims these documents are always required. The aim of the Skeleton is to summarise your case for the court and to save time on oral submissions. If you do one, you need to file it at court and serve it at least 3 days before the hearing. You can include a response to the new points they've raised. Also deal in your Skeleton with legal arguments and set out any cases you rely on.


    Or you can do both.


    I've just posted my Skeleton on my thread. Look at other recent threads (KimmyHrunt, hopsfield, Lamilad) for help with a precedent Skeleton. My Skeleton is a bit wordy and contains every defence under the sun I think. You are better off picking your strongest arguments I think. I'm not sure whether to cut mine right down or not, I'm waiting for the forum pros to comment on that.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Mar 17, 1:56 PM
    • 46,883 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 17, 1:56 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 17, 1:56 PM
    You can submit a skeleton argument now, responding to their WS and including your exhibits (case law to support the legal argument).

    See the NEWBIES thread post #2 where examples of skeleton arguments are shown. You don't have a '14 days before the hearing' deadline for a skeleton and can even rock up with it on the day - but best filed in advance I reckon, a few days before, with the court and BW Legal.

    Make sure it is headed up 'skeleton argument' and that you include your costs schedule and exhibits (e.g. court transcripts from the Parking Prankster's 'case law' and (if you are defending this as keeper, no driver identified) the POFA Schedule 4 itself and Henry Greenslade's wording from the POPLA Annual Report 2015 about 'Understanding Keeper liability'. Also the Beavis sign and a copy of this sign, by way of showing how rubbish the latter was.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 8th Mar 17, 1:57 PM
    • 858 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 17, 1:57 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 17, 1:57 PM
    If you do option 1, if the other side object to a 2nd statement, on the day tell the judge that you've served it and why and ask for leave to rely on it.
    • Romeo_
    • By Romeo_ 8th Mar 17, 2:15 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Romeo_
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 17, 2:15 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 17, 2:15 PM
    Hi guys,


    Thanks for your help. A skeleton argument it will be then.


    It was weird because I had to file my witness statement months away from the court date, then BW did theirs after mine and attacked some points I made.


    I think my witness statement was decent enough. I included POFA schedule 4 and Henry Greenslade's wording from POPLA.


    I'd like to add Lamilad's case as the point regarding keeper liability won him the case. Not sure where I can get a transcript though? I've checked Prankster blog.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Mar 17, 3:48 PM
    • 46,883 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 17, 3:48 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 17, 3:48 PM
    It is there on page two of the ''case law'' page.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Romeo_
    • By Romeo_ 9th Mar 17, 10:36 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Romeo_
    • #7
    • 9th Mar 17, 10:36 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Mar 17, 10:36 AM
    A ha! Thanks Coupon-mad. You have helped me with my case on another forum but I don't want to disclose anything on this forum...


    One thing I'm not happy with the witness statement that I submitted is I said "as the event was so long ago I cannot with certainty recall who may have been driving the vehicle that day"


    They have tried to counter this in their witness statement saying that they "sent the NTK 10 days after the event". Therefore their point being that I should know who was driving and didn't tell them. They then go on rambling saying it says on the PCN to tell us and the fact that I did not should be taken into account at court and then Eliot vs Loake (which I know I can argue, criminal case, forensics).


    I know I'm not legally obliged to tell them who the driver was. I just wish that from the outset I said I was not the driver. Maybe I can still argue that, as my point still alludes to that assumption. That, "I don't recall who may have been driving".
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Mar 17, 12:00 PM
    • 46,883 Posts
    • 60,203 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 9th Mar 17, 12:00 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Mar 17, 12:00 PM
    Therefore their point being that I should know who was driving and didn't tell them.
    Just use Henry Greenslade's words to show that you have no such responsibility in law and there can be no adverse inference drawn. The Judge will not know this, perhaps.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Romeo_
    • By Romeo_ 12th Mar 17, 8:53 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Romeo_
    • #9
    • 12th Mar 17, 8:53 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Mar 17, 8:53 PM
    Thanks SRM.

    Is it possible to quote the prankster blog? I've come across about 3 cases where judges have dismissed Eliott vs Loake but I cannot find the transcripts anywhere. The cases are all in the past 6 months. I can easily argue this point mysef but it would be another nail in the coffin if i had access to the transcripts or could quote the prankster. Although, he doesn't use the persons name in order to reference really anyway.

    I'm very grateful that Lamilad got his transcript for everyone to use and learn from.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Mar 17, 11:17 PM
    • 46,883 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes, a Judge remarked recently that she'd seen the Prankster's Blog used by people before. Better to use transcripts as they are not hearsay (not putting down the Prankster in any way but that's what the claimant would say, that a Blog is hearsay).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Romeo_
    • By Romeo_ 20th Mar 17, 12:24 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Romeo_
    In court now
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 20th Mar 17, 2:31 PM
    • 858 Posts
    • 1,455 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Good luck!
    • Romeo_
    • By Romeo_ 20th Mar 17, 4:53 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Romeo_
    I did it, I won
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 20th Mar 17, 5:10 PM
    • 39,205 Posts
    • 78,333 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I did it, I won
    Originally posted by Romeo_
    I say, well done.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 20th Mar 17, 6:13 PM
    • 9,880 Posts
    • 8,865 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    I did it, I won
    Originally posted by Romeo_

    Can't wait for the report !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    • Romeo_
    • By Romeo_ 20th Mar 17, 10:10 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Romeo_
    Thanks! It is such a relief and I cant believe I won.

    I was block booked for 10am but was told it could be in the afternoon. There was 14 excel cases scheduled for today, and the usher mentioned its one of the most shes witnessed, usually 10-12 every Monday. The wait was horrible with my emotions riding all over. One minute I was nervous, next minute I thought I cant wait to get in there to school them. You could spot out all the Bw Legal solicitors as they were all busy bodies, trying to look professional. We got notified just before 13:00 that they were breaking for lunch until 14:00 and then would allocate more of the cases. The usher mentioned that they might not even get through all of them today. I really didn't want to come back another day, also I don't have any holidays left for work. Luckily, we went in at just after 14:30 to see Judge Dignam.

    Boy did the nerves kick in, I thought I was totally out of my depth. I passed my skeleton to both the judge and Bw legal rep. The judge did the usual background speech and then asked the Bw Legal rep to summarise her case. She spoke well, and generally seemed persuasive, until you realised she was just clutching at straws. She mentioned they are not relying on POFA and presuming I was the driver.

    The judge started off slow and generally guided me at the beginning, asking me to confirm my personal details and what I had said in my WS. He asked me to confirm that my case was based around 2 points: 1) no keeper liability and 2) inadequate signage. He said we would start with signage first. Then turned to the claimant to ask her to argue her point. Well, the usual crap came out about how theres this many signs, grace period etc. Signage was something I hadn't really put much effort into as I was arguing I had no recollection of parking there. It was just something I added in to strengthen my case. My argument back was the signs are not clear and confusing with too much text, blue on yellow, quoting Martin Cutts. I then asked the judge to look at the Beavis sign compared to excels and that excels were not clear. The claimant then asked me questions re the signs. I thought id slipped up when I said whoever was driving didn't see the signs as they are inadequate, the judge quickly said "but you don't know that do you". The claimant got a bit excited at this and I quickly said "well it is a presumption, just like the presumption the claimant is making that I was the driver". I mentioned to the judge earlier that I have visited the peel centre before and I know it was roughly 2012 as I had my first car then, so roughly was that year. The claimant, again appearing excited asked me about this, saying did I abide by the rules of the car park when I parked there in 2012? I said I visited the peel centre, not that I parked there. Tesco is just across the road she quickly said "no further questions".

    Now was my turn. I started by saying that the claimant is relying on the presumption that I, the registered keeper was the driver. I then, using my skeleton defence, attacked Eliott v Loake and Combine Parking Solutions Ltd v AJH films Ltd. I then referred them to my other points destroying Bw Legals WS using POFA, Lamilads case, H. Greenslade, and how vicarious liability does not apply. I then went on to talk about the validity of the claim and the judge interrupted me by saying, its not your strongest point. I took the hint and concluded that the claim is misconceived and without merit, and I ask you to dismiss the claim. We then went out for him to make judgement.

    I felt like it was a 50/50 chance at this point, as I was expecting the judge to maybe engage Bw legal on points I made re no keeper liability. Somewhat in the approach Lamilads judge had. He was completely unbiased or showed no signs to suggest otherwise.

    15 mins later we were back in. The judge summarised, and throughout I thought it was not going to go my way. He said ultimately the cases Bw Legal quoted to invoke keeper liability were completely irrelevant, and could not be considered like I had argued. He said therefore ultimately the claim is misconceived and I dismiss the claim....

    I..was..shocked..I quickly asked for my schedule of costs and was awarded £95.66 which he told the Bw legal rep to pay within 14 days. She was out of that door so fast with her tail between her leg

    I'm glad its all over though as I found the whole experience uncomfortable and stressful at times. I'm just glad I put the work in and stood up to them. Going off what I saw today, its a real shame other people don't either. Half of the defendants of the excel cases didn't even show. The Bw legal rep I was against was bragging to what I think was her boss, saying "were doing amazing, won them all up to now, having a great day, just 1 left" I said to my girlfriend "wait until she gets me"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Mar 17, 12:14 AM
    • 46,883 Posts
    • 60,203 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Well Done!

    I just posted congrats on your pepipoo thread too:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=108133

    You played a blinder. Well worth the fight, with a bit of forum coaching.

    What a shame people don't turn up or just lose, always sad to read that. How these parking firms and lawyers can sleep at night, ripping people off and railroading the unwary in court for huge sums and no actual case or right to any money, I have no idea.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 21st Mar 17, 9:24 AM
    • 858 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    And then they rely on those cases to claim they always win, which is a complete misrepresentation!
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 21st Mar 17, 10:25 AM
    • 678 Posts
    • 1,456 Thanks
    Lamilad
    which is a complete misrepresentation!
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    Misrepresentation, misdirection, misuse of data, misconceived claims..... it's all in a days work for a PPC.

    Brilliant news, Romeo, I already posted on your ppp thread too but well done again.

    Just goes to show that Excel/VCS/BWL and their army of legally qualified agents cannot prevail against a well prepared defendant, armed with forum advice, and the will to fight.

    Why can't they?..... because the innocent motorists has 'right' on their side... and the best solicitor in the world can't change that fact.
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