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  • FIRST POST
    • Stuart Hamilton
    • By Stuart Hamilton 13th Jan 17, 11:28 AM
    • 5Posts
    • 13Thanks
    Stuart Hamilton
    Some advice please
    • #1
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:28 AM
    Some advice please 13th Jan 17 at 11:28 AM
    I have a flat in a private estate that I rent out to a housing association. It comes with a parking space. The management company for the estate has contracted a private parking company to patrol the estate and 'ticket' anyone parking illegally.
    Last year, between tennants, I was parked in my space to do repairs and came out to find a £100 (usual 40% discount if paid in 14 days) ticket on my car. I had a notice in my car window to say that I was the owner of the flat, so the attendant knew that it was my space.
    Therefore I ignored the 'ticket'.
    Now the private parking company has sold the 'debt' and the new 'debt' owners have got a small claims court date for me to attend.
    Do I have a leg to stand on? Should I settle? Should I attend the small claims court? Should I consult a solicitor at my expense?
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 13th Jan 17, 11:31 AM
    • 32,403 Posts
    • 16,500 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #2
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:31 AM
    • #2
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:31 AM
    Is this a hearing date or an initial claim form from court?

    Read up in the newbies faq thread near the top of the forum for advice on court claims and links to other sources of advice on dealing with a court claim


    First off whilst you get up to speed is to acknowledge the claim with the court in order to "buy" an extra 14 days to get your defence in
    Last edited by Quentin; 13-01-2017 at 1:48 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jan 17, 11:34 AM
    • 14,049 Posts
    • 22,069 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:34 AM
    • #3
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:34 AM
    You have 2 legs to stand on. You don't need a solicitor, we can help.

    Which parking company? Which debt collector? Have you received stamped court papers from the bulk distribution centre at Northampton County Court?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 13th Jan 17, 11:35 AM
    • 5,663 Posts
    • 7,317 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #4
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:35 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:35 AM
    I have a flat in a private estate that I rent out to a housing association. It comes with a parking space. The management company for the estate has contracted a private parking company to patrol the estate and 'ticket' anyone parking illegally.
    Last year, between tennants, I was parked in my space to do repairs and came out to find a £100 (usual 40% discount if paid in 14 days) ticket on my car. I had a notice in my car window to say that I was the owner of the flat, so the attendant knew that it was my space.
    Therefore I ignored the 'ticket'.
    Now the private parking company has sold the 'debt' and the new 'debt' owners have got a small claims court date for me to attend.
    Do I have a leg to stand on? Should I settle? Should I attend the small claims court? Should I consult a solicitor at my expense?
    Originally posted by Stuart Hamilton
    Who is the parking company and who are the debt collectors ??
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jan 17, 11:41 AM
    • 48,983 Posts
    • 62,469 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:41 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:41 AM
    and the new 'debt' owners have got a small claims court date for me to attend.
    Let me guess - they are not a debt collector - MIL Collections? OMG very beatable but there are defence points you MUST include.

    But what did you say in you defence?

    If as you say, you have a court date what is the date by which you must submit your Witness Statement and evidence?


    Do I have a leg to stand on?
    Yes if you act in time and get our advice on the WS and evidence for a MIL case re a residential car park. You must act in time but I want to know what you said on the claim form in defence?

    And who was the parking company, and what date was the PCN? Is it Capital2Coast?

    Should I settle? Should I attend the small claims court? Should I consult a solicitor at my expense?
    No, YES, no.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 13th Jan 17, 11:52 AM
    • 7,240 Posts
    • 7,391 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:52 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 17, 11:52 AM
    I suspect that we are all guessing here

    the so called "debt collector" has gone a long way without the OP actually contacting them , they have managed to get a court date and venue?

    perhaps the debt collectors have not bought the claim , and its our likely friends parking and property management

    the OP has made one posting , perhaps they can return and answer some more questions

    name of parking Co
    name of company allegedly sold to
    position in court system
    • Stuart Hamilton
    • By Stuart Hamilton 13th Jan 17, 12:20 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Stuart Hamilton
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 17, 12:20 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 17, 12:20 PM
    Thank you all so much for your quick replies.
    The parking company is New World Facilities Essex, a BPA approved operator
    The collection company is MIL Collections
    The court date is 10am 27/01/2017
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 13th Jan 17, 12:23 PM
    • 7,240 Posts
    • 7,391 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 17, 12:23 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 17, 12:23 PM
    so you have filled in all the court paperwork , applied for your local court and have good paperwork ?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jan 17, 12:24 PM
    • 48,983 Posts
    • 62,469 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 17, 12:24 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 17, 12:24 PM
    Oh dear...and you are within two weeks of that so...you've missed your deadline to submit a Witness Statement and evidence (?) and you haven't told us what you defence said.

    Please urgently answer about your defence. You are about to grab defeat from the jaws of an easy victory.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Stuart Hamilton
    • By Stuart Hamilton 13th Jan 17, 12:34 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Stuart Hamilton
    My defence on the paperwork that I returned to the court was:
    "I am defending this claim because the claimant has no right to make it. The claimant has bought a 'debt' from a company that has no debt to sell. The basis on which the original 'debt' is made is erroneous. The original comapny has tried to make a charge for me to park in my own parking space. They were informed that they had no basis for their claim as I owned the flat that the parking space relates to and have every right to park there. A notice was displayed to this effect on my car and they were informed by telephone of this. The claimant in fact has a claim against the company that they bought the 'debt' from, not from me. As there is no debt, the admin charge that they have applied to it is also erroneous. I have been put to considerable inconvenience informing the original company of this error and now the claimant is also putting me to inconvenience by chasing a debt that doesn't exist. I reserve the right to make a claim for my inconvenience, time and emotional distress in this matter if they do not drop the claim and inform me of this immediately."
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 13th Jan 17, 12:44 PM
    • 5,663 Posts
    • 7,317 Thanks
    beamerguy
    You should read this

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=MIL

    Scroll down as well to ...
    MIL Collections lose - Deed of Assignment not valid

    Parking companies breaking data protection by selling to MIL Collections
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jan 17, 12:49 PM
    • 48,983 Posts
    • 62,469 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    OK have a look again at the paperwork that gave you your hearing date

    Was the date you had to submit evidence and a Witness statement, YESTERDAY or earlier?

    Send me a private message and I will try to rescue this for you tonight with a skeleton argument expanding on your defence, which you will have to submit late. You need the usual stuff and if MIL have not supplied a WS yet then you may well get away with a late WS and evidence.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jan 17, 12:56 PM
    • 14,049 Posts
    • 22,069 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I'd have your lease agreement/deeds with you at court to prove you have unfettered rights to the parking spot. Have you checked them to confirm this?

    Here are some links you should read up on relating to 'primacy of lease', although your main fight with MIL will need to focus on the legitimacy of the assignment of the 'debt'.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/link-parking-and-overstone-court.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/new-generation-parking-management-youve.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/test-cases-scheduled-for-overstone.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/ukpc-hit-for-352-for-discontinuing.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/link-parking-lose-in-wrexham-flat-owner_2.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/tenancy-agreement-not-overruled-by.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/pace-pulverised-in-croyden.html

    Read the final court case transcript on this list 'Jopson v Homeguard' (2016) - linked below.

    http://www.parking-prankster.com/case-law.html

    Looking to the future
    There is every chance that New World Facilities and MIL have breached the Data Protection Act in the passing of your details between each other. You can sue on this. As you have 6 years to do so, it shouldn't deflect you at the moment from your priority of dealing with this court claim against you.

    A claim for DPA breach would range from a minimum of £250 to a max of £750, with binding case law to back this up.

    But first let the dust settle on your court hearing, then come back after and we can advise you further.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jan 17, 1:03 PM
    • 14,049 Posts
    • 22,069 Thanks
    Umkomaas

    Send me a private message and I will try to rescue this for you tonight with a skeleton argument expanding on your defence, which you will have to submit late. You need the usual stuff and if MIL have not supplied a WS yet then you may well get away with a late WS and evidence.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    @OP - CM is the most experienced and expert adviser on private parking issues in the country. This is an offer just too good to overlook. Do exactly as she advises. This is the very best 'get out of jail' card you could have been dealt. It really is your lucky day.

    CM is utterly genuine and you should have no qualms whatsoever in corresponding with her.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 13th Jan 17, 1:48 PM
    • 32,403 Posts
    • 16,500 Thanks
    Quentin
    @ OP:


    ***If you have inadvertently used your real name as your board name then you must contact MSE to get it changed to something anonymous***
    • Stuart Hamilton
    • By Stuart Hamilton 28th Jan 17, 10:26 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Stuart Hamilton
    Recap of the day.

    Got there 40 minutes early checked in with the usher.

    A lot of business set for the day and only one judge, so the usher was warning everyone that they could be there all day.

    Representative of MIL did turn up and the usher encouraged us to negotiate in a side room, to cut down court business. Barely sat down and I asked "so what are you offering?" and he said "nothing, I guess you're not either?" I said "No, I'm happy to sit here all day to be heard" and we both left.


    Actually called in to the court quite quickly, within 45 minutes of the scheduled time. The judge hadn't read the witness statements so both sides sat there for ten minutes whilst he went through them.

    MIL chap given first chance to speak and mumbled through a bit of the beginning of his case, but was interupted by the judge asking him was he aware about primacy of rights regarding my enjoyment of my parking space and that the management company couldn't make a contract to take this away. MIL wasn't sure about this but was pressed a few times. Judge said that was the deciding factor.

    As an aside the judge was a bit miffed about the bit in my witness statement listing previous dropped or uncontested cases and that it shouldn't be there. I said that it seemed relevant as they rarely ever won a case and just used the threat of prosecution to extract money that wasn't due. That went down ok.

    The judge asked what costs I had been put to so I listed half a days pay and parking costs which he said was reasonable and awarded me £75 to be paid within 28 days.

    The MIL man was very nice and we had a chat outside - he said he wasn't suprised to lose. He loses every one he goes to. He didn't seem to have prepared particularly.

    Many thanks to Umkomaas
    for all the help.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 28th Jan 17, 11:18 AM
    • 424 Posts
    • 807 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Well done.

    Is it possible you post up your final WS/defence that you submitted (that C-M helped with)?

    You should also contact the Parking Prankster and have him blog about your case and your day in court.

    The reason I say the last point is because there are a lot of people who do not understand this whole Residential Parking minefield that has been created and are paying to park in their own allocated bays and are paying for their visitors to park in visitors bays when they absolutely shouldn't be.

    So we need to get the information out there.
    Last edited by safarmuk; 28-01-2017 at 12:59 PM.
    • catfunt
    • By catfunt 28th Jan 17, 12:57 PM
    • 589 Posts
    • 899 Thanks
    catfunt
    Phew,well done!

    Was reading the start of this thread and fearing that you'd left everything too late. Glad this one was rescued, as no-one should lose to that shower in court!
    Got a Private Parking Notice??
    ** Do Not Pay
    ** Do Not Ignore a Notice to Keeper (except Scotland)
    ** Do not mention who was driving (No "Me" Myself" "I")
    ** Never, ever phone a Private Parking Company
    ** Please read the NEWBIES thread at the top of the forum
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 28th Jan 17, 1:23 PM
    • 3,701 Posts
    • 5,248 Thanks
    Half_way
    You should also now be looking at a counter claim as a possible breach of the data protection act could have occurred, the management company, through the actions of its agents has no right to request your keeper data.

    As as landlord, renting the property out, there is also the issue of your tenants, i would assume you want to make the property attractive to potential tenants, and likewise you would want your tenant to pay the rent, and have enough money to do so.
    A predatory parking company would make the property unattractive to potential tenants and, if like most people they could very well just pay the parking company's charge notices, the budget for this coming out of money destined for rent.
    Have the PPC put any signs up on, or attached to your property?

    You need to put a stop to this PPC nonsense as soon as possible, the management agents are supposed to be there for the residents/owners benefit, and not theirs (by taking a kick back for every parking charge issued) The responsibility for this rests with the management company who allowed the PPC to operate in the first place, and the management company should face the brunt of any action for a Data protection act breach, the only exception I would make for this would be if the management company was a one man band/small local committee
    If its a one man band/small local committee, then by all means inform them of their responsibilities it would/could scare them shitless and make the re consider their approach and then focus on the PPC for your DPA claim.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 28th Jan 17, 1:36 PM
    • 424 Posts
    • 807 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Agree with Half_way and I would add (from experience) any MA who insists on putting in such a scheme MUST also put in safeguards for residents, genuine visitors and contractors (e.g. a process to cancel tickets easily and efficiently).

    If they don't they need to be taken to task. Too many MA's put such a scheme in place and then try to wash their hands of it and expose ill-informed residents to unnecessary risk. In other cases I have seen the MA even misinform said residents.

    My advice to you would be to contact your MA to put this right (so you or your tenant/future tenants never have to go to court again) and if they won't go to the Freeholder and complain. I would even go so far as to argue here that the Judge has pretty much ruled that your lease has been breached by this scheme and the behaviour of the PPC (who was appointed by the MA who's client is the Freeholder).
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